Jazz to AC

one8tee · Post by **one8tee** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:45 pm

Hey Everyone.. I know it's a big joke about how AC doens't like Jazz guys (and girls). Is there any obvious reason that AC isn't hiring mostly (if not all) Jazz pilots instead of Joe off the street who has flown a 185 up north for the past 5 years. Why do so many Jazz pilots get PFO's? Jazz has an excellent training program (just ask WJ) and the operation is as close to AC's own operation as possible. Thanks everyone..

2low · Post by **2low** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:47 pm

2low · Post by **2low** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:48 pm

Tony Soprano

one8tee · Post by **one8tee** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:06 pm

babybus · Post by **babybus** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:14 pm

one8tee,

I have no insider knowlegde but I am betting that it's all about the money.
If AC takes a Jazz captain,then Jazz has to train am FO to captain and train a new hire to replace that fo.That plus the cost of the Jazz capt going to AC totals 3 courses to pay for by ACE.A guy off the street is one course that's it that's all.
P.S No new hires have come off of Cessna 185'S

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:29 pm

Yup thats the answer, why waste good money promoting from within. meanwhile 5 million worth of training this year alone has/will leave Jazz for WJ, lets not forget the other companies taking some of the highly skilled work force. makes great $$$$ sense to me.
Meanwhile piss off (even more) 1500 motivated pilots to the point of making em "walk the line" all the while destroying what was once a great company to work for...Keep up the good work ACE MGMT. Spend 100$ to save 10....

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:46 pm

yep...... TONY SOPRANO...!!!!!

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:32 pm

On the last seniority list that was published shortly after the new year there seemed to be approximately 50 pilots from Jazz that was frozen with reserved numbers at Air Canada. That combined with the pilots that already made the transition and add up the pilots that have just recently been given a letter with positive news and you have a substantial number from the connectors.

What people here on this forum are looking for is reassurance that the AC hiring system is somehow prejudiced to the Jazz guys. Bottom line from the VP of Flight Ops you make the grade , you get hired .

Period!

That goes for Military, Northern Ops, Ex-Pats, Cargo, Jazz pilots and even family members.

Do people have bad a day sure, why can't someone have a bad interview or a bad cognitive test. Re-group try and figure out what went wrong and re-apply.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:47 pm

the pilots that already made the transition

How many pilots is that ?

pilots that have just recently been given a letter with positive news and you have

Again how many pilots. Can't be very many considering the last course they interviewed was the Mar 06 course.

On the last seniority list that was published shortly after the new year there seemed to be approximately 50 pilots from Jazz that was frozen with reserved numbers at Air Canada

I am assuming that includes the ones that were hired at Jazz pre CCAA.

AC has hired 500 pilots since 2005, only 50 plus that few that are waiting for a course date and the ones that already went over. Does not sound too substantial to me.

Bottom line: The reason AC is not hiring anyone from Jazz is because of the 2 year freeze at Jazz. They need pilots now, not 2 years from now. Period. Which is pretty dumb considering you can go to AC and bid on to a new Aircraft 6 months later.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:42 pm

Bottom line: The reason AC is not hiring anyone from Jazz is because of the 2 year freeze at Jazz. They need pilots now, not 2 years from now. Period. Which is pretty dumb considering you can go to AC and bid on to a new Aircraft 6 months later.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They interviewed a ton of guys that were not frozen and PFOd them also. Let's face it, Jazz and AC's management have made some sort of a deal/promise, whatever saying they will not rape Jazz of it's pilots.

hell, Jazz can't keep the ones they have from going to WJ, SW and anywhere else in the world they can go. Losing a shiotload to mailine would only compound an already serious problem. On the other hand, it might help them keep some of the younger guys as there would be a light at the end of teh tunnel. Sigma six morons are not interested in that though, just turning a quick profit and hiring a bunch of college kids.

WTFG SIGMA-SHIT!!!!

abflyguy · Post by **abflyguy** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:54 pm

According to LOU 18, AC has to hire a minimum of 40% of its pilots from the "regionals" (written a few years ago at least). So if this not done do all the people at Jazz that were PFO'd have some sort of come back?

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:51 pm

abflyguy wrote:According to LOU 18, AC has to hire a minimum of 40% of its pilots from the "regionals" (written a few years ago at least). So if this not done do all the people at Jazz that were PFO'd have some sort of come back?

That 40% part of the LOU was removed a few years back.

one8tee · Post by **one8tee** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:17 pm

What I don't understand is that from what I can best assume (I don't work for Jazz) Jazz pilots would be among the best pilots suited for AC because of the similar operations. Also being part of ACE, I would assume (perhaps wrongly) that ACE would want to "promote from within". I suppose what I am asking is are all pilots, regardless of where they come from, treated equally when applying at AC, or is there some bias, one way or another towards Jazz pilots? To me it doens't make any sense to not hire a Jazz pilot to AC if they meet the standards in the hiring process, as training costs will remain the same for Jazz regardless of if their pilots move on to AC or WJ or anywhere else, they will still have to train x number of pilots.

Glen Quagmire · Post by **Glen Quagmire** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:01 pm

Why hire someone who can't start for another year or more. Surely AC would hire more Jazz guys, especially now with the stack of resumes thinning if there was no freeze. If there was no freeze in place Jazz would certainly be attracting more people as well, and a ton of good guys/gals at Jazz might not have left for Westjet, Cathay etc.

I am curious to see what happens to frozen Jazz drivers who are waiting for a course next year if the mainline has filled all open positions by then. Hopefully some contingency is in place.

ziggy · Post by **ziggy** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:13 pm

Just my two cents but anyone at Jazz wanting to move on, go to WestJet. We won't be walking the line. In my initial class, there were two guys that received phone calls from both AC and WestJet on the same day. One was a Jazzer with family ties to AC, the other corporate. They both made the smart decisioin and went to WestJet. Sorry Big Red, but i think that you have become a second choice in Canada. Hell, a third year WJ F/O makes almost as much as a third year Embraer captain. And, we work 15 days a month on average with no reserve, you're treated like a person, and everyone, and i mean everyone, here is amazing. I did the red team thing for a while and i have never been happier than I am now with the "TEAL" team.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:27 pm

ziggy wrote:Just my two cents but anyone at Jazz wanting to move on, go to WestJet. We won't be walking the line. In my initial class, there were two guys that received phone calls from both AC and WestJet on the same day. One was a Jazzer with family ties to AC, the other corporate. They both made the smart decisioin and went to WestJet. Sorry Big Red, but i think that you have become a second choice in Canada. Hell, a third year WJ F/O makes almost as much as a third year Embraer captain. And, we work 15 days a month on average with no reserve, you're treated like a person, and everyone, and i mean everyone, here is amazing. I did the red team thing for a while and i have never been happier than I am now with the "TEAL" team.

I'm glad that you found an airline for you but I'm sorry I beg to differ...AC is still the 1st choice in Canada. You can read Tony Sopranos' (I think it was Tony's) reply on another thread and you will see what everyone else is thinking. I know lots of people that haven't and will not apply to WJ for various reasons...myself included. Where do you get your figures for the salary? Are you factoring in the employee shares?

Btw 15 days is a little too much work...I'm getting 17 days off each month and I'm only at Jazz...for now. Been here just about 2 years now.

When WJ gets as big as Jazz or AC come back and tell us whether you are still being treated as a person.

I'm glad you found a perfect fit but stop selling WJ...you are on an Air Canada and Jazz forum. Pilots interested in WJ will go to the WJ forum.

Big M.A.C. · Post by **Big M.A.C.** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:42 pm

Just remember that WestJet hasn't been around as long as "Big Red", I imagine that after 70 years things might not be as peachy... Pilots will always want more, as will the shareholders... and eventually it will come to a head... now multiply that by all of the employee groups... flight attendants, gate agents, rampers etc... those are alot of unions, over time things do change. I am not saying that the corporate mentality is the same between the two companies.. of course they are different, but you are talking apples and oranges. WestJet is a vital new company with all players happy to be giving AC a run for their money. I hope, for the sake of all the employees that the work environment stays as positive. Hey its just my humble opinion but I also think that in general the people at AC are all doing their best (on both sides of the fence) and that some kind of balance between company and pilot group always ends up being established. Right now it is still a great place to work and the only place in Canada that gives you as much of an opportunity to do pretty much any kind of flying you want: local domestic, long haul domestic, international and to try out as many aircraft. I'd still take it over anything else, but to each his own... I am sure if I was from Western Canada, I would probably think otherwise... great thing about our country is the rights we have to our own opinion...

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:29 pm

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:28 am

"They interviewed a ton of guys that were not frozen and PFOd them also. Let's face it, Jazz and AC's management have made some sort of a deal/promise, whatever saying they will not rape Jazz of it's pilots. "

Traf,

Oliver Stone just called, he wants his conspiracy theory back !!!.

I over the last little while have been flying with a whole bunch of former Jazz guys on the Bus that were not frozen. Hell I even flew with two former Jazz pilots that were on the Global Solution committee one based in YYZ and the other based in YWG. I think the junior pilots should also know that an enhanced flow through agreement (no interview/cog/psyc testing) was immediately declined by the ALPA MEC and the members never heard a peep of that as well.

The problem seems that we always hear about the ones not making it rather than the ones getting on.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:49 am

Thrust set,

Do you know why ALPA MEC didn't want this? Does anyone have any more information about this GS thing? For something as important as this, our union has been awfully quite - all we heard was was a memo saying it was over and some guys on the line saying it was ACPA that pulled out, but I suspect there's a lot more to this that our union is not telling us.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:53 am

If there is an aversion to hiring Jazz pilots, it would be purely economical and nothing else. As Traf said, Six Sigma has identified this as an area to save money. Anyone thinking any differently needs to wake up. The other thing about Six Sigma is that they don't look beyond tomorrow or the end of their noses. If it saves a dime today even if it will cost us a dollar next quarter, they do it.

Bede, I agree with you with regard to GS. Why is everything done under the darkness of night with secret code rings and gag orders? Absolutely no need for it. Why hide it, unless you have something to hide? I have heard that both sides are still talking, however as with everything else regarding G.S, it is just a rumour.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:09 am

If they are still talking, what are they talking about? ALPA sent out a memo recently saying that GS was essentially dead. If there was an offer for an enhanced flowthrough, ALPA would surely turn it down. I don't get it! The senior group at Jazz is so dead set against a flow-thru! I can't undertsnad why. If they don't want to go. Don't go. For those that do, It would be a nice option.

Ahhhh well, if Jazz and mainline ever got their shit straighthened out, there would be nothing left to talk about except WJ.

JazzJetDriver · Post by **JazzJetDriver** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:37 am

"The senior group at Jazz is so dead set against a flow-thru!"

Where did you get such an idea, not interested maybe but certainly not dead set against it...two different things.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:40 am

Air Canada has made it clear they will not facilitate/help/aid ect. a closer relationship between Air Canada and Jazz or ACPA and ALPA Jazz.

I suspect as many have said it is all about the money. Possibly also making sure there is no case for common employer as the divestiture of portions of ACE take place.

Jaques,

Check out YVR newsletters 12 and 8 on the ACPA sight.

This is the second time that the only information emanating from ACPA on the subject was from the YVR LEC in solitude which only reaches 670 pilots. Don't know why.

In short ....... no substance to why it didn't work out. Dialog will always be open but no GS in the near future or heading into 2009.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:49 am

The last update from our MEC Chair (July '07) indicates that he will soon meet with the Jazz MEC Chair to make sure our "goals are still aligned". ACPA is also exploring the inevidable move towards ALPA representation (inevdable is my opinion). Guys and gals, these are interesting times. I can see a day when Jazz will be hooked up with mainline in such a way creating a first in this country. This is not only a matter of survival but a natural alliance and therefore it will be just a matter of time. There will be some obstacles as has already been proven. I am confident in the end that both parties can work it out.