Could this spell the end for some operators? Just using these guys as an example, but Thunder Airlines, and others have been advertising frequently for crews on this board...and others no doubt! I know there are operations with pilots running out of time....when do they get to the point of closing the doors? Some of these operators are willing to pay (finally) pretty good coin. Still, they are revolving doors to the big leagues. What to do? Hire retired guys on contracts to cover your busy times? Pay older captains ( the year was 1778) so much they can't afford to leave, and fill the right seats with recent college grads? Make no mistake, this is a huge problem. And I can't see it getting any better soon. And these guys don't look for money up front!
As for the companies that do require you to pay up front...I hope to see them go belly up!
So, what would you do?
Companies NEEDING drivers...
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saucer_driver
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Bob A. Booey
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Perhaps they should start negotiating their minimums with their contract providers. Not to anything rediculous, but to something a little more manageable in comparison to what their crews are leaving for. For instance, what about a 1000hr F/O with good multi and good PIC?
NO EXCUSES.
A 1000 hour guy(co-pilot) is the root of the problem. A year down the road, off he goes to an airline job. And that's no where near enough time to upgrade him. That and the fact that I, for one, would not like to be strapped to a number "nine" behind a captain with a thousand hours! That's just a joke!
I agree these guys although can't be upgraded in probably anything less than a year, they could be in the future. They get a solid number of hours on type in different situations the right people could upgrade. Its the FOs that leave the company to go be an FO at another company that really bugs me. I can understand captains leaving for better paying jobs in the 'bigtime'Not to anything rediculous, but to something a little more manageable in comparison to what their crews are leaving for. For instance, what about a 1000hr F/O with good multi and good PIC?
And for the recent grads of either college programs or flight schools there are still several operations that operate 172,185,206,207 and aircraft of that nature. PIC time is very important... those guys that go right in to the right seat miss out on an important learning process in my opinion. There is no safety net of a training captain or captain to suggest some course of action.
Having trouble reaching ATC? Squak 7500
there are some companies that are finally starting to pay better, but a lot are still trying to get away with pay crapy wages. so I hope things continue like this long enough to get all these companies to realize that they can't get away with paying so poorly. and its not always just the pay, the way management treats there people and scedule can play into it a lot too. the other side of the coin are those pilots who will take the crapy pay just to say in a major centre, and run off to the airlines at first chance just to make even less! 
Here's a novel idea. Assuming you have high time captains who are sticking around. Get into bed with one of the flight colleges. Include a year of right seat time as part of their course requirements. There you'd have a neve ending supply of right seaters. But, show a little class. Unlike companies that do this in the States...pay them! The colleges would even pay for the training on your turbine, as part of the course.
Would this work? Or is it too simple??
Would this work? Or is it too simple??
The sad thing is that unless you are going to live in the boonies, $70,000 (after taxes and benefits would be 'about,' oh, $45-$50?) is still not enough dosh to raise a family or buy anything bigger than a tent to live in. Unless you find guys who are willing to commit to the small-town lifestyle, or stay single, pilots will tend to gravitate to the cities.
Unless you regulate through some type of association or you extract bonds from everyone, the free-market will always see pilots leave for bigger/faster/more urban operators. If your payroll could match that of, say Westjet's, you might keep more for longer, but the young pilot will always be attracted to the flash of the airlines. Although I'd rather be dipped than do airline flying, getting a B7*7 type and a $150,000+ is more attractive than a driving a Metro. Besides, London UK is better than, say, Thunder Bay.
Who knows, maybe they would keep people if they paid $150k for driving a Screaming Wienie. Supply and demand is what is driving it. Higher salaries attract more to aviation, a glut of pilots or a downturn in the industry drives down wages, pilots quit flying so they can eat, the industry turns up or there is a pilot shortage, wages get driven up.
I can't see a solution, except to say that the industry is skewed so far to the positive right now, it can't last, then the companies that are desperate now will set about abusing and screwing again and will "reap what they have sown." I still maintain that no pilot's salary ever killed a company, so maybe if these outfits treated their guys well when things were tougher instead of screwing and bullying they would find more loyalty and make much more money when things are good.
Or an umbrella association that all pilots belong to that controls hiring, sets wages and controls entry. That might evolve into licensing and self-policing, like doctors have. That would annoy a lot of pilots but it would go a long way to regulating the industry and provide more stability. That might slow the cyclical nature a bit and would regulate how many pilots can get Commercial licenses, encouraging wage stability.
Unless you regulate through some type of association or you extract bonds from everyone, the free-market will always see pilots leave for bigger/faster/more urban operators. If your payroll could match that of, say Westjet's, you might keep more for longer, but the young pilot will always be attracted to the flash of the airlines. Although I'd rather be dipped than do airline flying, getting a B7*7 type and a $150,000+ is more attractive than a driving a Metro. Besides, London UK is better than, say, Thunder Bay.
Who knows, maybe they would keep people if they paid $150k for driving a Screaming Wienie. Supply and demand is what is driving it. Higher salaries attract more to aviation, a glut of pilots or a downturn in the industry drives down wages, pilots quit flying so they can eat, the industry turns up or there is a pilot shortage, wages get driven up.
I can't see a solution, except to say that the industry is skewed so far to the positive right now, it can't last, then the companies that are desperate now will set about abusing and screwing again and will "reap what they have sown." I still maintain that no pilot's salary ever killed a company, so maybe if these outfits treated their guys well when things were tougher instead of screwing and bullying they would find more loyalty and make much more money when things are good.
Or an umbrella association that all pilots belong to that controls hiring, sets wages and controls entry. That might evolve into licensing and self-policing, like doctors have. That would annoy a lot of pilots but it would go a long way to regulating the industry and provide more stability. That might slow the cyclical nature a bit and would regulate how many pilots can get Commercial licenses, encouraging wage stability.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Cat Driver
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Now that there is a shorage of pilots if companies that treat their employees like crap all of a sudden start to look like they belong to the fortune 500 group........
.....fu.k e'm don't work for them for any amount of money because a Leopard never changes its spots....
..I say again...fu.k e'm let them go bankrupt because they can't find pilots...
Karma.
.....fu.k e'm don't work for them for any amount of money because a Leopard never changes its spots....
..I say again...fu.k e'm let them go bankrupt because they can't find pilots...
Karma.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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saucer_driver
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I am someone who is not only willing but would like to stay 3 or more years with the next company i work for, out of instructing. Now what I am getting at interviews is that I dont have ambition...so what am I supposed to say, Yes i want to be with AC in 3 years....it isnt true, plus they would be like well he'g gonna leave.....but then you say I am not someone who likes to leave if I like where i am, and you are non ambitious. :roll: Now I dont have 1000 hours yet (not far), but i do have more then enough PIC for my ATP's....If a company like Thunder would look at me I would stay with them for many years even with no bond. How might one express that at an interview?
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SuperTroll
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One of the problems with these companies paying big bucks to attract drivers is the reputation of the company. When things slow down in 2009 or 2010 there could easily be a memo go around announcing new payscales, just like they have done in the past. If you want to work for these guys, get YOUR lawyer to draw up something long term. Otherwise, when the music stops, so will the gravey train!
ST
ST
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SuperTroll
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Cat Driver
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It would be one of the best things that could happen to aviation.Or like Cat Driver said: fu.k e'm let them go bankrupt because they can't find pilots...
I'd like to see that happen too!
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I don't know what your reasons are for having this opinion, but once you're working for a multi-turbine operator, seeing other pilots leave for the airlines and hearing their vitriolic bitching about their duty days, time off, maintenance etc....you might change how you feel. Personally, I can say with absolute certainty that I will NEVER work for WJ or AC for the simple fact that I absolutely cannot stand living in any city with more than 20,000 people. Perhaps you could say the same in an interview, even if it's not true.saucer_driver wrote:I am someone who is not only willing but would like to stay 3 or more years with the next company i work for, out of instructing. Now what I am getting at interviews is that I dont have ambition...so what am I supposed to say, Yes i want to be with AC in 3 years....it isnt true, plus they would be like well he'g gonna leave.....but then you say I am not someone who likes to leave if I like where i am, and you are non ambitious.
saucer_driver, the reason why a company like Thunder probably has a hard time hiring guys under 1000hrs or little multi is because, one they want a short upgrade time, but the other main thing is that they cant upgrade one of there FOs if he/she dosent have the 500 multi PIC due to medevac requirements, which im pretty sure Thunder does alot of. Best advice I can give is to find an operator that you can fly right seat in a turbine, then have the option to move over to left seat in a multi pistion, that way you go in knowing about the IFR world, still get your PIC time for the left seat turbine spots. If you do end up going to a company that has a structure like thunder you may find yourself in the right seat for a long time, which will cause you to move on to a different company down the road anyways.
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YYZ_Instructor
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Going back to the original message here, this could be the end of a few smaller operators, indeed. As long as pilots from underneath don't pick up too much multi-PIC companies such as Thunder Airlines will pack it in. Everyone is leaving these companies. Not just Captains....FO's too. The add is one sign that times are difficult for them, but even more is that no one is making $70,000 a year like posted in their job ad.
On the other hand they're hiring FO's with 1500TT and 500multiPIC and paying them the same base salary as 1st and 2nd year captains!!!!
Morale? Down the shitter! 
HAHAHA what a joke....
Going down like the Titanic!!
On the other hand they're hiring FO's with 1500TT and 500multiPIC and paying them the same base salary as 1st and 2nd year captains!!!!
Morale? Down the shitter! HAHAHA what a joke....
Going down like the Titanic!!
If the economics of air travel allow for multi-million dollar salaries for the Miltons of the world, you can bet your ass that no pilot's salary ever killed an airline. Once these chicken sh*t operators get it, maybe we can all live happily ever after?
I think $70,000 is crappy.
I think $70,000 is crappy.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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V1RotateV2
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Something I don't get:
How is $70,000 to live in lower cost towns crappy and then pilots quit to live in TO o Vancouver, fly for the "big ones" and make under $40K?
My guess is that schedules, maintenance and the way pilots are treated by the smaller operators has much more to do with employees quitting that money.
Offering more money is easy, changing the way they do business and the company culture is the hard part. Maybe they will realize what needs to be done when they finally run out of decent and qualified guys.
How is $70,000 to live in lower cost towns crappy and then pilots quit to live in TO o Vancouver, fly for the "big ones" and make under $40K?
My guess is that schedules, maintenance and the way pilots are treated by the smaller operators has much more to do with employees quitting that money.
Offering more money is easy, changing the way they do business and the company culture is the hard part. Maybe they will realize what needs to be done when they finally run out of decent and qualified guys.
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just curious
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Screw that. I'm gonna ask for a 350 hour guy....if you're an older guy with the right numbers, you should be knocking on some doors. By the right numbers, I mean around 7-10K, (and over 45) so they can just leave you "out there"....toss a 250 hour guy with you, and never have to worry.
