I guess the "math books and big brains" let them down in YYZ though.
And I'm incencitive for making simmilar comments about rowdy
Still taking low timers?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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SQ
Ho sorry, I thougth you would understand my TC english... (joke)flyinphil wrote: Well, I know you are struggling a little with the language SQ but I really don't understand your point.
they have few planes a week landing in YUL : 2 AF 747 & 1 AF A330/600, 1 KLM MD11
I guess the "math books and big brains" let them down in YYZ though.
It has already been beaten to death and as pointed out in past post. No college grads working at Jazz yet. That being said, if you were going in for surgery, who would you prefer to operate on you. A highly experienced surgeon or the recent college grad(intern)? Enough said. Do your time in the bush or up north. It will make you a better pilot. Isn't that what everyone is really stirving for. Lets hope so.
Interesting topic dealing with a problem that is happening in the rest of the world and soon to become a reality in Canada. Initially in my experience the military trained pilots have a leg up on the civilian pilots due to their training. However at some point the training advantage disappears and both military and civilian trained pilots perform at the same level. Surprisingly when it comes to upgrades both groups have approximately the same failure rate.
One of the major downsides in my opinion is the extra stress put upon the junior Captain who because of the system, at least at AC, pairs junior pilots together. Unfortunately this can result in the Captain flying by him/herself, which is not desirable. Past patch fixes were only partially successful so a rethink is required.
Rather then fighting a reality I think it would be far more productive to provide input into the system in order to establish sensible implication guidelines.
Unfortunately if the past is any indication of the future our pilot group has a history of shooting itself in the foot on many issues.
One of the major downsides in my opinion is the extra stress put upon the junior Captain who because of the system, at least at AC, pairs junior pilots together. Unfortunately this can result in the Captain flying by him/herself, which is not desirable. Past patch fixes were only partially successful so a rethink is required.
Rather then fighting a reality I think it would be far more productive to provide input into the system in order to establish sensible implication guidelines.
Unfortunately if the past is any indication of the future our pilot group has a history of shooting itself in the foot on many issues.
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tonysoprano
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SQ
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DAVE THE RAVE
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ICAO says a pilot with 1500 Hours can command a public transport aircraft ie. A320/B737. Airlines set their own minimums. In Europe a Commercial Pilot can sit in the right seat with 200 hours.Jaques Strappe wrote: In Canada, you can obtain an ATPL by flying right seat in a circuit. We know that. The government has deemed you as capable of being an "Airline" pilot by issuing you an Airline Transport License. Wow!
Now, lets say that a newly minted ATPL pilot gets a job with a charter company and said charter company lands a contract flying government personnel around. Oh but wait, as with most government contracts, there is a minimum experience requirement, usually 500 to 1000 hours multi PIC. So, the government has basically said, you can be an Airline Transport Pilot .........so long as we are not riding in the back!
Even Transport realizes that experience counts for something well beyond an education. There is no doubt that you can take a kid and make him a Zero to Hero in 3 years. Like Transport however, I don't want be riding in the back.
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tonysoprano
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My own experience, years ago, we were on the same course on the 320. He a capt 320 me an fo. We flew together on one of our first line flt. We felt confortable having done the course together but the airplane was "new" to both of us on a Cat II into Halifax on our first line flight after line indoc. Company policy does not encourage this but... Lots of hours from dash8 to 747. Experience in this buisiness means confidence. We did fine.SQ wrote:does it mean that once you understood your F/O was a brand new one during the flight you were doing together ?tonysoprano wrote:In theory yes. In practice, no.
if yes, how many hrs did he have and how was your flight?
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Jaques Strappe
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Tony, A Captain can't just run out of the sim building and on his first line flight, shoot a CATII. I would have to look it up again but there is a minimum time requirement in the left seat as well as a minimum time on type requirement. As a crew, whether you are comfortable or not, the FOM is pretty clear. This was also in place before the new "Low Vis" policy was brought in.My own experience, years ago, we were on the same course on the 320. He a capt 320 me an fo. We flew together on one of our first line flt. We felt confortable having done the course together but the airplane was "new" to both of us on a Cat II into Halifax on our first line flight after line indoc. Company policy does not encourage this but... Lots of hours from dash8 to 747. Experience in this buisiness means confidence. We did fine.
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tonysoprano
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JS.
This was after line indoc and I do recall us going over the time requirement for the capt to do the approach. Dispatch was also consulted. As this was quite some time ago, my memory might fail me on the details but the at the end of the day, the flt was conducted. There are other situations that we hear about, where new catains and fo's fly together all the time, all according to the FOM nonetheless relativeley new to their positions. There is nothing wrong with this. Given the lengthy and arduos work AC put you through to get the left seat, I'd say it's a pretty safe operation.
This was after line indoc and I do recall us going over the time requirement for the capt to do the approach. Dispatch was also consulted. As this was quite some time ago, my memory might fail me on the details but the at the end of the day, the flt was conducted. There are other situations that we hear about, where new catains and fo's fly together all the time, all according to the FOM nonetheless relativeley new to their positions. There is nothing wrong with this. Given the lengthy and arduos work AC put you through to get the left seat, I'd say it's a pretty safe operation.
I believe it is a min of 300 hours command in type before a Captain can fly a Cat II or if he has previous command time with AC it drops to 100 hours.Jaques Strappe wrote:Tony, A Captain can't just run out of the sim building and on his first line flight, shoot a CATII. I would have to look it up again but there is a minimum time requirement in the left seat as well as a minimum time on type requirement. As a crew, whether you are comfortable or not, the FOM is pretty clear. This was also in place before the new "Low Vis" policy was brought in.My own experience, years ago, we were on the same course on the 320. He a capt 320 me an fo. We flew together on one of our first line flt. We felt confortable having done the course together but the airplane was "new" to both of us on a Cat II into Halifax on our first line flight after line indoc. Company policy does not encourage this but... Lots of hours from dash8 to 747. Experience in this buisiness means confidence. We did fine.
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Brick Head
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http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/ ... tage.php?p
Pilot quantity and experience levels dropping in the face of industyry-wide expansions. Situation noted below is going to impact safety levels significantly and stands to get much worse.
Worldwide shortage of pilots affecting flight safety, analysts say
BRUSSELS, Belgium: (AP) As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Jakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people.
Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash. And analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that the worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "(Like) skill and a solid familiarity with airline operations."
The pilot shortage is relatively recent. It is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the 9/11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation.
"The result is that experienced pilots from developing countries in Asia and Africa are leaving in droves for places like the Gulf, and (those nations) are left with no choice but to recruit pilots fresh out of flight school."
Evidence of the exodus of pilots and mechanics from established airlines and national flag carriers abounds. And poaching is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia, leaving companies no choice but to employ graduates fresh out of flight school.
In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after 9/11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule. After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4-5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
"You just need to look at the order books of these airlines, to understand that these are primarily expansion aircraft," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," he said.
That helps to explain why airlines everywhere are aggressively recruiting pilots. India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth.
By comparison, Germany's Lufthansa — one of the world's largest airlines — employs a total of just over 4,000 pilots.
On average, airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available for each long-haul aircraft in their inventory. For short-haul planes they need less, between 10-18 flyers.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of ground school and 50-60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License, then 250 hours plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which includes instrument and multi-engine ratings. A total of 1,500 hours of flight are required for a license that would qualify a pilot for the support seat.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide. But most hold private or commercial licenses while just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License that allows holders to fly for airlines.
"(In the past) three moon landings and X-ray vision couldn't guarantee you a job flying a turboprop," Voss said jokingly.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this has placed greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multi-leg segments while monitoring a copilot's performance, rather than sharing the flying load with the first officer.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
Paradoxically, the worldwide pilot shortages are also making it harder to properly train new pilots. Flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut training scheme — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — enabling airlines to drastically reduce both cost and training time. In this program, a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, are driven by considerations that ignore the broader safety issues.
"The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary," Smith noted.
Pilot quantity and experience levels dropping in the face of industyry-wide expansions. Situation noted below is going to impact safety levels significantly and stands to get much worse.
Worldwide shortage of pilots affecting flight safety, analysts say
BRUSSELS, Belgium: (AP) As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Jakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people.
Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash. And analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that the worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "(Like) skill and a solid familiarity with airline operations."
The pilot shortage is relatively recent. It is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the 9/11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation.
"The result is that experienced pilots from developing countries in Asia and Africa are leaving in droves for places like the Gulf, and (those nations) are left with no choice but to recruit pilots fresh out of flight school."
Evidence of the exodus of pilots and mechanics from established airlines and national flag carriers abounds. And poaching is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia, leaving companies no choice but to employ graduates fresh out of flight school.
In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after 9/11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule. After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4-5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
"You just need to look at the order books of these airlines, to understand that these are primarily expansion aircraft," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," he said.
That helps to explain why airlines everywhere are aggressively recruiting pilots. India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth.
By comparison, Germany's Lufthansa — one of the world's largest airlines — employs a total of just over 4,000 pilots.
On average, airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available for each long-haul aircraft in their inventory. For short-haul planes they need less, between 10-18 flyers.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of ground school and 50-60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License, then 250 hours plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which includes instrument and multi-engine ratings. A total of 1,500 hours of flight are required for a license that would qualify a pilot for the support seat.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide. But most hold private or commercial licenses while just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License that allows holders to fly for airlines.
"(In the past) three moon landings and X-ray vision couldn't guarantee you a job flying a turboprop," Voss said jokingly.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this has placed greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multi-leg segments while monitoring a copilot's performance, rather than sharing the flying load with the first officer.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
Paradoxically, the worldwide pilot shortages are also making it harder to properly train new pilots. Flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut training scheme — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — enabling airlines to drastically reduce both cost and training time. In this program, a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, are driven by considerations that ignore the broader safety issues.
"The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary," Smith noted.
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Cat Driver
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Flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
And Transport Canada is stuck in the mindset of making it so difficult for retired or semi retired high time pilots to become flight instructors that few bother.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Jaques Strappe
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- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Cat Driver wrote...
Is that true Cat? A crying shame if it is but then nothing our government does surprises me anymore.
And Transport Canada is stuck in the mindset of making it so difficult for retired or semi retired high time pilots to become flight instructors that few bother.
Is that true Cat? A crying shame if it is but then nothing our government does surprises me anymore.
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Cat Driver
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When I went to TC's flight training office for some guidance on starting a flight school and mentioned I wanted to renew my class II instructors rating he asked me how long it had been lapsed, so I told him about twenty years.Is that true Cat? A crying shame if it is but then nothing our government does surprises me anymore.
He said in that case it would be difficult for me to renew, so I said, why? I have been flying commercially ever since. He looked me straight in the eye and said in that case it would be more difficult because I would have to many preconceived ideas about how to teach flying.....
What do you think of that mindset J.S.?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Jeremy Kent
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Cat Driver
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Jeremy, it was some years ago and I was " attempting " to get advice and help from the head of flight training in my region.
I have only related the story to try and point out the minefield one steps into when trying to set up any new flight training business in Canada, I operated the school from 1986 to 1991 and had both fixed and rotary wing training when I sold out.
It has become even more difficult to operate a FTU since then, CAR's have made getting a straigh answer to most questions the equivelant of putting on a blind fold and throwing darts at an answer board.
The norm now is pay fees to be told you can't do it.
I have only related the story to try and point out the minefield one steps into when trying to set up any new flight training business in Canada, I operated the school from 1986 to 1991 and had both fixed and rotary wing training when I sold out.
It has become even more difficult to operate a FTU since then, CAR's have made getting a straigh answer to most questions the equivelant of putting on a blind fold and throwing darts at an answer board.
The norm now is pay fees to be told you can't do it.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
Hey Cat
Funnily enough, that comment from Transport does not surprise me. I am not sure what the color of the sky is in Transport's world but I am convinced it isn't blue.
Unfortunately, it is a political animal and as such, all common sense is left at the door.
I would love to see all flight instructors or at least the vast majority, be guys like yourself who have something to offer rather than the kid who graduated last week as is only there to get hours while teaching someone everything he knows.
Funnily enough, that comment from Transport does not surprise me. I am not sure what the color of the sky is in Transport's world but I am convinced it isn't blue.
Unfortunately, it is a political animal and as such, all common sense is left at the door.
I would love to see all flight instructors or at least the vast majority, be guys like yourself who have something to offer rather than the kid who graduated last week as is only there to get hours while teaching someone everything he knows.
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