Why I can be such a dick

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:18 am

Some people bring out the asshole in me (people I deal with in ridiculous "debates" such as global warming, or people who have simplistic and extremist views and solutions). Even though real life friends have a good laugh at my quick wits and harsh tongue, on an anonymous board like this one, things are quite different, and I realize that.

Nevertheless, this whole global warming thing hits closer to home. Being very closely involved in the scientific community, and seeing first hand the type and quantity of data out there supporting the current claims, it makes it a lot more difficult to swallow that people who have no idea of what's really going on, can sit there and actually think they can refute scientific findings. Many scientists have tried the exercise of disproving man made global warming, scientists with actual scientific knowledge, scientific tools, who have observed, analysed and debated with other scientists. Scientists a lot more capable than most of the denyers on this board. The result remains the same. Global warming is man made beyong any reasonable doubt. Period.

If you want a glimpse of how I feel, check out this website: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php and browse through the forums. If you are in rush read this one: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/in ... ic=15682.0 Notice It's the same kind of argumentation found here. Personal opinions formed from no scientific training, twisting science and putting forth these misconceived opinions as facts. People thinking they know better than science, claiming conspiracy theories, quoting mysterious and isolated sources, playing with words, using arguments like "science was wrong once, therefore it can be wrong again". These people are in all seriousness advocating the fact that the earth is flat, and they have "scientific evidence" to prove it. The rest of the world is on a "bandwagon" and is gullible. Reading some of the posts one can not help but recognize the same types of patterns and arguments as the nay sayers of global warming. This is one link I found in one of the posts: http://www.freewebs.com/raacoz/

Anyway, most of us here realize how scientifically idiotic denying the roudness of the earth is. For a scientist involved in global warming, this is how ridiculous it feels to hear people denyong the existence of man made global warming and repeating the same misconceptions over and over again, and no amount of reason or facts can sway their positions. The human mind is made in such a way that it can lock itself shut and refuse to accept what is obvious.

The difference with the flat earth society and the global warming deniers is that one is harmless, and the other is potentially dangerous. No science is perfect, and there is always room for improvement. However, with the amount of data out there, and the potential for catastrophic consequences, to see that some people are still unwilling to make the slightest effort, all because they are so self centered that they can't even realize they are hurting themselves in the long run is quite frustrating. But to know that these same people, are potentially jeopardizing my children's future, with no valid reason other than idiocy and lazyness is what really boils the blood in my veins. There is enough evidence out there to justify action. No sane man when faced with a dangerous situation that has this much risk involved would not adjust his behaviour. But denial is not sane or rational.

Most of us understand that there is something potentially wrong with the world we live in. We see a lot of things that don't make sense. We hear the conspiracy theories, we witness a few select industries rising above governments themselves, and making their own set of laws at our expense. We see our planet changing, our lakes and rivers getting polluted, our air darkening, our environment dying. We see our tax money being diverted, we see people abusing the system, we see others being above it. We see all this crap and yet we do nothing but deny and accept. Someone once said on this board, and I apologize for forgetting who it was, that "we get the government we deserve". Well, we are starting to get the environment we deserve. This mistake, may however be quite unforgiving.

Am I saying I am not doing the same thing? No of course not, I am a coward like most of you, I refuse to sacrifice most of my comforts, and I still do things that I know encourage what I stand against. I But when it comes to this whole global warming thing, I have stopped denying and started trying, and I am succeeding on a small scale. Not doing anything now, means doing a lot more later, and that's what you need to understand. Let me say it again, because it somehow makes me feel better. What you refuse to sacrifice today, you will sacrifice ten fold tomorrow. There are a lot of things we need to do, and there are a lot of things we can do. There's no need to go back to the stone age, and we can still live very comfortable lives (more comfortable than if global warming gets out of control), we just need some discipline. But most importantly we need to stop denying. It's time to start taking responsibility for every action, and it's time to start realizing that ressources are not unlimited, we are not eternal, and the earth does not need us to continue existing.

That being said, I'll go back to being a dick on the other thread, but hopefully not on every thread.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:41 am

You need to spend more time typing in long posts here.

pika · Post by **pika** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:42 am

Maybe so but your avatar has been in place long before the movie has been making a killing at the box office. Coincidence?

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:46 am

You are not a dick.

It takes an awful lot of discipline not to descend into the type of insulting language used in this forum when some people attack others for having a different viewpoint. There are people here who settle on an opinion and then close their minds completely to any other argument, and get quite offensive toward people who disagree with them. Global warming and the gun debate are classic examples. Some things said here would result in a punch up if they were said in person.

I personally find your posts thoughtful and reasonable.

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:41 pm

Hedley wrote:You need to spend more time typing in long posts here.

One of the perks/drawbacks of the corporate life: Time to kill. I will consider your suggestion though. However, you do realize that if I do that, you are more likely to be targeted?

pika wrote:Maybe so but your avatar has been in place long before the movie has been making a killing at the box office. Coincidence?

Ha! I actually considered taking it off when the movie became popular. But then I started thinking, I wouldn't choose to put an avatar on because of a movie, so I figured it would make sense not to take one off because of a movie either.

Rockie wrote:You are not a dick.

It takes an awful lot of discipline not to descend into the type of insulting language used in this forum when some people attack others for having a different viewpoint. There are people here who settle on an opinion and then close their minds completely to any other argument, and get quite offensive toward people who disagree with them. Global warming and the gun debate are classic examples. Some things said here would result in a punch up if they were said in person.

I personally find your posts thoughtful and reasonable.

Well.... I am guilty like anybody, and I still think I can be a dick sometimes (ask some of the members here, I'm sure they'll agree with me. For once). However, I am pleased to see that not all my posts fall unto deaf ears. Reading some of the replies one would think that's the case, but I am learning with time that the most sensible readers who mostly agree with what I post, are also the ones smart enough not to get involved in the debates (even though I wish they would).

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:13 pm

I have not been able to escape that you are a rabid 'global warmer' and you have spent some considerable time on here trying to convince us to believe the gospel according to C. Joe, but what I want to know is what are you doing personally to counteract the effects of 'global warming?' Perhaps, by leading by example, you might have more luck convincing us of the veracity of your message? I am inviting you to enlighten us.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:31 pm

I understand you can buy carbon offsets from Al Gores company, and that will take away the feeling of guilt when you fill up your Hummer with gas.

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:42 pm

xsbank wrote:I have not been able to escape that you are a rabid 'global warmer' and you have spent some considerable time on here trying to convince us to believe the gospel according to C. Joe, but what I want to know is what are you doing personally to counteract the effects of 'global warming?' Perhaps, by leading by example, you might have more luck convincing us of the veracity of your message? I am inviting you to enlighten us.

What I do on a personal level has nothing to do with the veracity of the message. You should not judge the message by the messenger. A murderer can say killing is wrong, even if he's killed before. So, Even if I ate roots and produced zero emissions it would not convince anybody of the scientific facts behind global warming. Don't confuse the science behind global warming with me (or my "gospel) or even with Al Gore. You can hate/like me and my style on a personal level, but that still won't change the veracity of the science.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to know what I do on a personal basis, just come right out and say it. Don't pretend it has anything to do with the global warming science or enlightenment. There are thousands of pages of studies available out there to enlighten you. There is no need to hide the real reason behind that question/challenge.

If you want to turn this into a pissing contest or if you want to make a judgement on my person because of the amount (or lack of) efforts I am doing on a personal level, I'd be more than happy to tell you or anyone else for that matter. Just come and say it like it is.

Cat Driver wrote:I understand you can buy carbon offsets from Al Gores company, and that will take away the feeling of guilt when you fill up your Hummer with gas.

I wouldn't drive that ugly POS even if it ran on water.

pika · Post by **pika** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:54 pm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... html?f=rss

Don't want to hijack the thread but have a look at the video. My efforts at saving and conserving seem pointless next to this disaster.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:19 pm

Actually, C.J., I did. That's what this means: "what are you doing personally to counteract the effects of 'global warming?"

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:32 pm

I wouldn't worry about it CJ. I was gonna add my two cents to that thread on "global cooling" but decided against it. Trying to reason with somebody who is so ignorant that they steadfastly deny that humans are affecting climate change is like trying to reason with somebody from the religious right. It's more or less pointless because logic and reason are not a language that these people speak.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:42 pm

The earth has been through these temperature cycles before, was that caused by humans polluting the planet also?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:48 pm

Well, Ragbagflyer, who are you talking about? Nice of you to come on this site and insult everyone who doesn't agree with you. Kind of an ad hominem attack in a massacre format. Let's here what you have to say too - anything original or the same old dogma?

Actually, if you are also a committed global warmer, what are you doing to help out; are you just blathering about it because its a bandwagon or are you personally doing something about it? Its similar to a person who sends money to MADD then gets drunk and drives home.

I kind of think that if you are committed to the global warming thing, you will do something about it and make some sort of contribution. Other wise you are like a "...sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal..." Corporate Joe thinks its beneath him to reply, how about you?

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:00 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The earth has been through these temperature cycles before, was that caused by humans polluting the planet also?

Respectfully, that answer has been clearly addressed twice in the other thread. You are invited to browse through it. This thread was not meant to be another debate thread on global warming. There is already one going, we don't need 2.

XS Bank, PM sent. The reason why I sent this as a PM, is to separate Corporate Joe the person, with global warming the science, just as I wish people would separate Al Gore and his movie from the science. The quantity of my efforts should not serve to discourage or single out those doing less to no efforts, or to inflate the egos of those doing more. This is an individual initiative, and we can all contribute on different levels. If we can get ourselves out of the denial stage, we'll all be better off.

Then, and maybe then we can start quantifying personal efforts.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:18 pm

CJ, I'm impressed with your ability to keep your temper overall. Don't sweat the odd slip. Sometimes people design their replies to provoke a pugilistic response, and it can be hard not to oblige them.
Keep up the fight on Global Warming.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:22 pm

Ah yes, tempers.

We should start a "Freak out" thread where we can all get it out prior to engaging in any type of debate around here. Either that, or an Avacn membership should include one of those little Zen squishy balls filled with rice...

I get to fly in all kinds on ecosystems that have seen dramatic effects of global warming, I even get to participate in a number of the studies you guys quote each other. Ok, ok, I only fly the science types around, but it counts as participation in my books. I've seen the high Arctic ice, or lack there of, I've helped people measure the recession of glaciers in BC, AB, Yukon, and Eastern Alaska, I've helped capture a variety of disappearing animals, and I've helped set instrumentation that measures how fast the earth's crust is rebounding due to massive ice loss in certain areas...

So, it begs the question, "what have you done personally to help climate change?" Here's your answer in black and white:

I married probably the only person from Newfoundland who is a Vegetarian, habitual recycler, public transit user, and "eat locally" shopper. Thems ard to come by in Nfld bye.... How very Green of me.

I also made the choice to fly little fuel efficient helicopters instead of gas guzzling Jets... Personally, I feel that was a mighty big contribution. In fact I may just start a thread on that one....

So, I reckon I'm as justified as anyone to slam all you half-wit inbreds who are still Global Warming Deniers. After all, I'm only responsible for 715 litres of Jet B pollution entering the atmosphere today - how much are YOU on the hook for?

stl

PS If someone could please help me figure out this "simple" Pay Pal Verification process, I'd be eternally grateful.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:30 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The earth has been through these temperature cycles before, was that caused by humans polluting the planet also?

Actually CAT, even though it's true that the earth has been through these cycles before it has no bearing on the fact that humanity's activities on earth are contributing to this climate change. I think everyone can agree that dramatic climate change is bad since it was something like that that killed off the dinosaurs. We can't obviously can't stop the earth from making its own mind up what it's going to do, but we can do something about causing it ourselves can't we?

And I'm not talking about individual contests like some people here persist in engaging in. What's needed is worldwide effort on the part of governments, industry and individuals. Then if the cataclysm happens anyway we can follow the dinosaurs into extinction with a clear conscience knowing it wasn't us that caused it.

TFTMB heavy · Post by **TFTMB heavy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:41 pm

I heard from an old-timer that trading posts recorded temperature and other general weather conditions everyday and that the trend was a warming one. That being said I can't prove if it's true or not and I'm no authority on the subject but I think we may be in a natural warming part of the cycle and we (humans in general) are not helping things out.

As for this:

After all, I'm only responsible for 715 litres of Jet B pollution entering the atmosphere today - how much are YOU on the hook for?

How many people were on board? What's your lbs/nm? There’s different ways of measuring efficiency.
I wouldn't judge pilots by how much fuel they burn in a day.

By the way I’m not trying to start a pissing match, just my opinion.

Martin

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 pm

TFTMB wrote:
As for this:
After all, I'm only responsible for 715 litres of Jet B pollution entering the atmosphere today - how much are YOU on the hook for?
How many people were on board? What's your lbs/nm? There’s different ways of measuring efficiency.
I wouldn't judge pilots by how much fuel they burn in a day.

By the way I’m not trying to start a pissing match, just my opinion.

Martin

Actually, almost none. But I can measure it in terms of diesel fuel slung.... Oh wait, they burn that too... Am I responsible for that too? This is starting to look bad for the home team isn't it?

All kidding aside, efficiency really has nothing to do with it, does the atmosphere care how many people went from A to B for a given fuel consumption? Nope. Judging pilots by that criteria seems to make sense to me. So, back to the original question, how many litres ARE you responsible for?

I'm guessing more than my paltry 715...

Oh, and I live in a tent, yes really, so do I get some credits or something for that? I could be down to 500 on lifestyle alone.

stl

TFTMB heavy · Post by **TFTMB heavy** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:28 pm

All kidding aside, efficiency really has nothing to do with it, does the atmosphere care how many people went from A to B for a given fuel consumption?

It's kinda like the commuting concept! The more the flight is full the better, pilots don't usualy control that so... In my case I fly corporate, I don't decide how many people get on either but I decide when the APU starts, my way of doing my share.

You only get tent credits if you would stay in one next to the crew house!

Martin