Awww Poor Cargojet...

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon May 14, 2007 8:34 pm

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=30934

Wow what a difference a year makes?

Now you don't need 500 multi PIC to sit in the back seat of the 27 anymore.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:22 pm

Remember when it was 500pic, and we kept telling everyone to stick at it, and not give up because the industry was CYCLICAL?

That statement still applies...the industry is still Cyclical...don't forget where we came from kids. We can go back there in a hurry.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:28 pm

and we will in a few years...

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Mon May 14, 2007 10:59 pm

Hey co-joe, just wondering if you consider 500 Multi PIC to be too lofty a requirement for the right seat on the 727? You're quite right in pointing out how things change in a year, the guys that were hired as S/O's a year ago are now the next to be upgraded. The group that was hired after them will likely be upgraded before they've spent 12 months in the back seat.

The 500 Multi PIC was not so much the experience required for the back seat. Let's face it, Flight Engineers on the 727 have 0 Multi PIC, no CPL/ATPL, they're not even pilots. Then again, they're not upgradeable.

The goal is to hire S/O's with upgrade potential because like I said, progression has been swift. The number of hours that a new hire S/O has when he or she starts here, is the same number they will have when they move up to the right seat. I don't beleive there are many transport category jet jobs out there where 500 MPIC for a right seat is considered out of line, do you?

As for "poor Cargojet", there's not much poor about the place these days. Lots of movement, more crews, more SDO's and some pretty exciting prospects for the future. Best of luck to all new potential hires!

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:42 am

nite fr8 wrote:As for "poor Cargojet", there's not much poor about the place these days. Lots of movement, more crews, more SDO's and some pretty exciting prospects for the future. Best of luck to all new potential hires!

Lots of movement out of the company.
More crews leaving for anywhere else.
More SDO's promised but not expected to be delivered, yet again.
Some pretty exciting prospects for the future somewhere else.

Cargojet; the best place in Canada to work 20+ nights a month!
(That should get an interesting email launched.)

V2 · Post by V2 » Tue May 15, 2007 9:12 am

IMO Cargojet seems like a good place, I've seen nothing but professionalism from George Surgar and David Moore, whether here on avcan, or a very polite PFO letter

Would I take a job there? you bet!

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:26 pm

Pratt X 3 wrote: Lots of movement out of the company.
More crews leaving for anywhere else.
More SDO's promised but not expected to be delivered, yet again.
Some pretty exciting prospects for the future somewhere else.

Pratt, correct me if I'm wrong but I can think of 2 guys that have left in 2007 and one of them was called to the police force, something he's been waiting for at least 7 years. I realize others have applied elsewhere, but with only a couple of guys having left so far this year and compared to the recent attrition at KFC for example, it's hard to see this as "lots of movement out of the company".

When you say "More SDO's promised but not expected to be delivered, yet again.", can you remember a time when George made an official announcement that he then failed to honour? I can't and I'd wager he's not about to start now... I guess we'll have to wait another week or so for the June sched. You might be right, the reputation he's earned over the years in this industry might prove to be unfounded but somehow, I doubt it.

But I can't imagine that you've not noticed our volumes lately, they're at record levels and growing daily, this after your prediction of less than a year ago when you said, "Yes, it was the Menlo run (YMX-DAY-YMX) and yes, it was due to the purchase of Menlo by UPS and the shutdown of the Dayton sort facility. But if you think that the loads/revenue will stay the same, you are not thinking clearly.".

I don't expect everyone to share my point of view, but this growth coupled with some other developments on the near horizon present some exciting prospects. To each their own.

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:37 pm

Pratt, correct me if I'm wrong but I can think of 2 guys that have left in 2007…and compared to the recent attrition at KFC for example, it's hard to see this as "lots of movement out of the company".

I was talking about the future. Yes, only 2 guys have left so far this year. Compared to the roughly 25% of the pilot list that left last year, it’s a mere pittance. However, you illustrate the view that most guys hoped management didn’t have. That being since nobody is leaving, everything must be fine. It’s the classic ostrich with its head buried in the sand approach that has so many guys upset.

When you say "More SDO's promised but not expected to be delivered, yet again.", can you remember a time when George made an official announcement that he then failed to honour? I can't and I'd wager he's not about to start now...

Where did I say anything about George? Like most guys, I believe (and I hope I’m right on this one because it’s sad when guys forget what its like to be a pilot once they become management) that George is just the messenger. He has very little power over whether or not things like this go through. Stuck between a rock and a hard place. But it’s not the first time the number of days off have been increased only to have them taken away because it wasn’t "financially viable".

But I can't imagine that you've not noticed our volumes lately, they're at record levels and growing daily, this after your prediction of less than a year ago when you said, "Yes, it was the Menlo run (YMX-DAY-YMX) and yes, it was due to the purchase of Menlo by UPS and the shutdown of the Dayton sort facility. But if you think that the loads/revenue will stay the same, you are not thinking clearly.".

You know, if the aviation career doesn’t pan out for you, you would make an excellent journalist. Good job on taking something I said and quoting it out of context to try to prove your point. I did say that; however, it was a reply to someone else’s statement regarding the Menlo freight. http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ht=#196437 I was pointing out that there wouldn’t be an increase in loads or revenue of the former Menlo freight since UPS would fly that stuff themselves to the major cities in Canada. Which they did. The 757 in YMX became a DC8. They added a 727 in YHM. YYC got an A300. I agree that the volumes are up. I would be the last person to say that the loads are down. They have stayed up for the past couple of years. There isn’t a seasonal slow period anymore. Revenue is up and the money is rolling in. That’s what is frustrating. There is no excuse to be running so lean crew wise and 20+ days a month is ridiculous. It all comes down to not wanting to spend the money and adequately staff the airline. And if you read the whole thread, you'll notice it's the same issues yet again being discussed. Nothing has changed.

Cargojet should be one of the best places to work in Canada and it’s a real shame that its not. The exodus will continue until something is really done to make it worthwhile to stay. And its not just because there are other jobs available now. It’s taking a toll on everyone and the job isn’t worth the ‘short term pain for long term gain’. But that's my point of view and I fully expect not everyone will share it; however too many do.

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm

Much has happened in the past couple of months since we last bickered back and forth over Cargojet's pros vs. cons. I "gracefully" bowed out of the discussion at that point because the last thing I want to do is be involved in a pissing match and sound like I'm trying to convince people why they should enjoy working here. You do like it, or you don't like it. In the end, it's all the same to me, afterall, unfortunately I don't make any commission even if I do inadvertantly succeed in covincing anyone of anything. I'm simply doing my part to deliver "just the facts ma'am".

Within the past week, two separate yet equally significant press releases hit the news wire. First, that Cargojet will be adding a 757 to the fleet followed promptly by the second announcement that we purchased the Operations side of Georgian Express which will give rise to Cargojet Regional.

With respect to the 757 announcement, it's amusing to me in a smash-a-pane-of-glass-over-my-face-then-chew-on-the-jagged-shards kind of way, that posting a press release on this forum still elicits responses such as, "PLANS TO ADD does not mean it has entered the fleet." or, "probably promising it to keep people from leaving, then conveniently "forget" about it and leave the guys hanging.". Wow... spring loaded to the conspiracy theory position much? Smile pussycat, why so angry?

Do you truly beleive that Cargojet, in its best interest, would issue a press release (meaning to the public), announcing its intention for a fleet expansion solely as a devious, carrot-dangling manoeuver in order to keep pilots from leaving?? Only then to "conveniently forget"?? Do you think that the public, to whom the press release was issued, would also just conveniently forget? Nevermind Cargojet Management, you're not giving the general public much credit, now are you? The public (share holders) is not so forgetful, much less forgiving. Besides, that would just be pure evil. When did Darth Vader take over the helm at Cargojet?

We don't want pilots to leave here, but c'mon, Cargojet aint that
desperate!! Pilots leave, the vast majority stays, it's okay. With the industry kicking, there's lots of carrots in the sink. I've had the pleasure of meeting the latest new hires. Great bunch of guys, sharp, good attitude (except the one who graduated from Seneca, he's got a leather jacket that says he's a pilot), I jest, he's awesome too (in a Seneca kind of way). Anyway, these guys haven't even started their Sim and already they're a part of these new developments, welcome fellas, enjoy the ride!

In the thread about the Georgian acquisition, Hazatude wrote, "Is it just me or does CargoJet seem to have their shit together more than any other operator in Canada?". This from an outside observer looking in. I'd have to respond with a resounding "yes" from an inside observer looking out. Like I said earlier, exciting times ahead. Standby for further.

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:03 pm

I know quite a few Cargojet pilots. They are not happy guys. They say that they have been given 2 more days off a month. But apparently their pilot guidebook stated that after 5 years of service, they could receive 4 weeks of vacation. Without even consulting with the pilots, this was quietly deleted. They also say guys are getting upgraded quickly to the right seat, but they still have to continue flying in the S/O position. One guy apparently was upgraded 2 years ago to the right seat, but was still doing a full month's schedule as an S/O as recently as a few months ago. They said he just recently quit. As for issuing press releases of the 757, they said Cargojet also sent out a press release about flying to Mexico a few yeas ago, and it never happened. They said Cargojet looked to be a good company to work for when their first started, but the working conditions have been getting progressively worse. They figure Cargojet will be around for a long time, but it is not a good place to work for pilots. I asked if it is that bad why are you staying? They said they are looking for other work. Hopefully things will get better there.

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:52 am

thx1138,

Didn't take your fingers long to start tapping out a misguided response, now did it. I mean no insult by this but since you've never worked here, your information is second-hand and single-sided.

"I know quite a few Cargojet pilots. They are not happy guys."

I know quite a few more Cargojet pilots. They are happy guys. That's why they're here (the happy ones). We did get 2 more SDOs per month, and although some beleived this was an empty promise, the company delivered.

"their pilot guidebook stated that after 5 years of service, they could receive 4 weeks of vacation. Without even consulting with the pilots, this was quietly deleted."

There was no secrecy with respect to this change in the admin guide. There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic when it was amended. Naturally, it was not a popular amendment but in the end it's 5 vacation days lost, 24 SDOs gained...you do the math.
** See correction next post down**

"They also say guys are getting upgraded quickly to the right seat, but they still have to continue flying in the S/O position."

It's true, guys are getting upgraded quickly, in most recent times within 8 months or so of starting as S/Os. Junior F/Os when needed, do fly as S/Os. They will continue to do this until sufficient new hires have been trained to fill the seats. The training department has been going non-stop in an effort to acheive this and within the next couple of months, there should no longer be a need to continue this way. It should be noted that regardless of what seat these dual-purpose F/Os occupy, they are paid F/O wages. So, would it go over any better if there were no upgrades until sufficient new hires were trained meanwhile the upgrade candidates continued making S/O wages? Somehow I doubt it. I know the F/O you refer to, he's a good guy and I wish him only the best. As irony would have it, had he stuck around another month or so, he'd no longer be required to do any back seat trips.

"As for issuing press releases of the 757, they said Cargojet also sent out a press release about flying to Mexico a few yeas ago, and it never happened."

About four and a half years ago, long before Cargojet became a public company (the relevance of which I'll address), there was indeed an expressed interest to operate into Mexico. The company was brand new and looking for new work. Then along came UPS, a secure, long-term and much more lucrative contract which would soon become a cornerstone in Cargojet's expansive customer base. Since the company was in no position to do both, they chose the "sure thing" (UPS) and in doing so, greatly added to their existing volume. Makes sense to me.

The difference between a private company vs. a public company is that a public company is accountable to all of its shareholders. Therefore, a public company is much more tight lipped and won't issue a press release until there is a high degree of certainty that events will transpire as announced. A private company is accountable only to itself so any announcement can be made and later changed or revoked with no consequence. Apples and oranges.

"working conditions have been getting progressively worse."

This is the one that's got me scratching my head. Opinions and perceptions are subjective. Facts on the other hand are not subjective, they're facts and as such, not subject to personal bias. I won't get into my opinion on this one, I'll just list some "working condition" facts.

Since I've been here;

-per diems have increased (more money)
-SDOs have increased 20% (more time off and/or more money)
-SDO pay has been increased by 50% (more money)
-approved staffing level increase to 30 crews (better sched)
-peak season premium introduced (more money)
-Sabre Crew Trac/Qual and sched bidding being introduced (better sched system)
-fleet diversification i.e 727,757,1900,C208 (new markets/growth)

When you break it down, you get; more money, more days off, better scheduling system, better schedule, sustained growth, new markets and better job security...so what conditions have been getting progressively worse again??

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:59 pm

thx1138,

Let me correct a response I made to one of your comments.

You said: "their pilot guidebook stated that after 5 years of service, they could receive 4 weeks of vacation. Without even consulting with the pilots, this was quietly deleted."

There was a change made in the Admin Guide regarding vacation allotment but it was more one of semantics. Initially, the guide stated that flight crew were entitled to 3 weeks vacation per year. It should have read and was subsequently changed to read 15 days per year, here's why. Vacation entitlement is calculated as a ratio of days worked per year.

The initial percentage required under the Canada Labour Code is 4%. After five years of service this increases to 6%. The percentage is granted in arrears, in that vacation accrues as employment continues, i.e. after six months service one has earned half of the annual vacation allotment for the present year. In a calendar year, the vacation taken is based on service from the previous year.

Here's the math based on the original 10 SDOs per month:

10 SDOs per month X 12 months=120 SDOs per year
365 days - 120 SDOs=245 working days per year
245 working days per year X 6%=14.7 vacation days per year or, 15 days
(the extra .3 day was thrown in for coffee and smoke breaks)

Now we have 12 SDOs per month, so:

12 SDOs per month X 12 months=144 SDOs per year
365 days - 144 SDOs=221 working days per year
221 working days per year X 6%=13.26 vacation days per year. We still however get 15 days vacation per year.

Based on this, the ratio is now closer to 7%, exceeding Canada Labour Code requirements. Incidently, all flight crew are given the 15 day allotment (6.8%) from day one of their employment even furhter exceeding the Labour Code stipulation of only 4% for the first 5 years.

This is the issue I was mistakenly referring to in my last post, my apologies. But where the hell is the "4 weeks after 5 years" clause written? I can't find it in any Admin Guide, past or present.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:17 pm

We are indeed living in interesting times! Lots of interesting info "nite fr8". Have a few buddies there and they seem to like it.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:20 pm

With this post I'll get to rank 4 (200th post). YEAH!

CHEERS!!!

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:34 pm

Dude....why so sensitve?
Relax. You say guys are happy, then they are happy. Good to hear that someone likes working there. I just hear way too many negative things about the way pilots are treated at Cargojet from the pilots themselves.
Is it true the owner told a pilot " if you don't want to work 20 days, then how would you like to have 30 days at home"? Also, latest thing I've been hearing is that guys are booking off. Then get a call from the Chief Pilot to see if they are really sick. Is this true or BS?

Flaps 1 Billion · Post by **Flaps 1 Billion** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:59 pm

THX, I think the sensitivity comes from the typical company bashing you take part in.

No one likes to read what an outsider thinks of their company, who do you work for??? Would you like me to have a go at your company? Well it won't happen. All companies have great and bad parts, some great things are the bad ones for some, while others think the bad parts are alright. This is the dynamic of a company and the dynamic of the staff that work for said company. What a boring world we'd live in if everyone thought the same way, you can't please everyone.

Nightfr8 has made several posts about what he believes are good things about our company, and they are good things. The need to do so is a natual defense to the company for which he has worked for for some time, believes in and loves. When you have a strong belief and enjoyment for something, it's very hard to standby while someone takes that apart.

Why do pilots feel the need to trash each other's jobs??? We all do the same thing, we're not heroes, we fly airplanes for god's sake. Relax, enjoy YOUR job and allow others to enjoy theirs, whatever they do.

Nitefr8, Why you say this one to me???

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:38 pm

I never bashed the company. I stated what I have heard from my buddies who work there. This is an open forum isn't it? My buddies are not happy there. Thats a fact. I stated that they were getting 2 extra days off a month, hows that bashing? Cargojet issued a press release saying they were going to Mexico and it didn't happen. Thats a fact. Nite Fr8 says guys are happy there. I don't doubt him. Good to see he is happy there. The negative things I have heard are not about the way flt ops management has treated the pilots, it is about how the owner has treated the pilots.

Flaps 1 Billion · Post by **Flaps 1 Billion** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:58 pm

Just answering your question.

"Dude, why so sensitive?"

Call it what you want, it's still offensive to some.

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:24 pm

My apologies if I offended anyone. Not my intent.

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:35 pm

Not sensitive at all...dude, hence conveying to you that there's no insult implied in my responses. But, just as you feel it's important to express your negative impressions of Cargojet, impressions you've gained vicariously through others, I feel it's equally important for me to share the positive impressions that I've gained for myself, from actually being here. This way, people out there who know nothing of Cargojet can atleast gain a more balanced view.

I'm simply responding with some detail to your vague and somewhat distorted view of the state of affairs here (again, no insult implied). Take your comment about "working conditions becoming progressively worse". You don't specify what elements have progressively worsened, you only generalize. In contrast, I list real changes that have taken place which have progressively improved working conditions here.

Left unanswered, your generalizing becomes the only information available to anyone curious or potentially interested in working here. I don't think that's fair, do you? This forum has great potential as a resource for all of us, wouldn't it be better if we worked toward realizing that potential?

The following comment made by the owner; " if you don't want to work 20 days, then how would you like to have 30 days at home"?, was made at our annual pilot conference in front of the whole Flt. Ops department. It was a joke. He said it. Everyone laughed. Then he laughed. Then everyone laughed some more. It's so easy to take an event out of context when you don't have a frame of reference because you weren't there.

As for the CP calling up people who've booked off, I dunno, I wasn't there. He's a stand-up guy, why don't you ask him?

Let me assure you, I'm completely relaxed. I have no problem with you, rather just with some of the things you present as fact but choose not to, or are unable to substantiate.

thx1138 · Post by **thx1138** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:14 pm

Nite fr8 said:
I have no problem with you, rather just with some of the things you present as fact but choose not to, or are unable to substantiate.

Hey Nite Fr8,

Lets make this a constructive thread okay? You substantiated what I stated. I said they got 2 more days off a month, you said you got 2 more days off a month. I said guys upgraded still flew in the back seat, you said guys upgraded were still flying in the back seat. I said they issued a press release they were flying to Mexico and didn't, you said so also. I said my buddies said it was getting progressively worse, you asked how. Well they said the nights were getting longer and so are the pairings. Guys are burning out is what they said.
As for the owner saying " if you don't want to work 20 days, then how would you like to have 30 days at home", ....come on guy....I know the person, and I'm sure you do too, who was called into the office and threatened with this. He works at big red now.

Nite fr8 said:
This forum has great potential as a resource for all of us.

I agree with you. But you jumped all over me when I posted. I was stating what my buddies were saying. You could have just asked what they meant by "getting progessively worse". I know you want to defend your company, but you basically jumped down my throat because I don't share your opinion.

over and out

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:21 pm

Please THX, I really can't see how anything I've expressed could be construed as jumping down your throat because "I don't share your opinion", particularly since you haven't shared your opinion. You've shared your buddies' opinions. This is presumeably why all of your points are preluded with things like; "they said..", "I've heard..", "they figure..", "they also said..", "I hear way too many negative things.." etc. Obviously, you can't be expected to have your own opinion since you have no personal experience of Cargojet. I'll say this only one more time; I mean no insult. Also, I haven't and won't jump down your throat. Phew... and you suggest that I'm being over-sensitive??

I was compelled to respond to your first post on this thread where clearly, your intent was to focus exclusively on the negative things you've heard about Cargojet. Therein lies my contention. I wasn't substantiating the original points you made, I was putting them in some much needed context so that they could be more than just regurgitated semi-truths. What you're doing doesn't help anyone since everything you've posted here is based entirely on hearsay. And you suggest to me that we should make this thread constructive??

Trust me, nothing you've said has insulted me. For that matter, nothing I've said has been in direct defense of Cargojet, it simply doesn't need defending. In the spirit of keeping this thread constructive, I'm merely offering some first-hand background to what you've been posting in order to lend it some credibility.

Peace

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:55 pm

Flaps 1 Billion,

Based on your comment "Nitefr8, Why you say this one to me???", I'm guessing you might think you've figured out who I am. Sorry to disappoint but it's obviously a case of mistaken identity Manott...er...um..I mean.. what?...AHHH SHITE!!! Guess the cat's outta the bag now isn't it? Sigh, it's all over for me.....I'll never work in this town again!!

Good luck in the Sim amigo, don't forget to bring your leather jacket that says you're a pilot right on it! Take care Eff Head.

Flaps 1 Billion · Post by **Flaps 1 Billion** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:11 am

No leather jacket here chum, you've got the wrong wanker. See you Tues night buddy.

nite fr8 · Post by **nite fr8** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:11 am

Wow Flaps...you're so mysterious! Jolly good then old boy.