Nark, Please Explain To Me....

[sky's the limit]

Why you would want to fight for a Government who treats it's soldiers in this way? Not to mention the automatic tour extensions, poor equipment for the Guard, and the myriad of lies which brought about this war among other things.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6912952.stm


By Peter Bowes
BBC News, Los Angeles


Action is being taken on behalf of hundreds of thousands of veterans
A coalition of US military veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is suing the US government.

The class-action lawsuit on behalf of hundreds of thousands of veterans claims they have been denied disability pay and mental health treatment.

The legal case against the US Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) seeks widespread changes in the agency.

It says the DVA has deliberately cheated some traumatised war veterans out of benefits owed to them.

The case was filed on Monday in a federal court in San Francisco.

Cost 'incalculable'

Suing on behalf of hundreds of thousands of veterans, the coalition claims they have been let down on several fronts.

These include the provision of prompt disability benefits, additional staff to reduce waiting times for medical care and services to treat post-traumatic stress disorder.

The coalition says the DVA worked with the Pentagon to mis-classify post-traumatic stress disorder claims as pre-existing personality disorders.

The cost to veterans, their families and the nation will be incalculable, it says, unless systematic and drastic measures are instituted immediately.

There has been no reaction to the legal action from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Several Congressional committees and a presidential commission are now studying ways to improve health care for war veterans.

[. ._]

STL, he doesn't have a choice in the matter.

He signed up and is doing his job.

The alternative is to desert and be a traitor to his fellow marines. That wouldn't be cool. And he hasn't done that, so I give him credit. He's fulfilling his duty.

-istp

[Driving Rain]

He doesn't have to explain anything ... He's a member of the United States Marine Corp. That means among other things never having to say your sorry. His political bosses might have some splain'ín to do but not Nark!

[2R]

If you are looking for an example of how shamefully a Government can treat it's Veterans .You do not have to look to far.The only time the Politicians give a rats ass about the old soldiers is when there is an election or another War looming .That is when they buy the old guys lunch and make speeches about how grateful we should be as a nation to the sacrifices ,hand out a few medals ,smile for the camera's blah blah blah.........and by the way next week we are going to send troops to ...........

"Lest We Forget "is not just a line from a Kipling poem it means something to some people .It is a very clear poem with some very clear anti-war sentiment.

[Nark]

I feel honored that you hold my opinion on this forum so high, however I don't hold sufficient rank to make radical changes.

If I decide to stay in for 20+ years I'll make Colonel or higher, perhaps at that point I'll turn in all my rifles and trade them for flowers.

Until then I'll enjoy my time here, making your blood pressure even higher.

Cheers
and

Semper Fidelis.

[pushyboss]

Nark,

You were a good guy when you worked for me and I respect what you are doing now. I may disagree with your Commander-in-Chief but you are doing a honorable thing. Keep your head down...

[sky's the limit]

I feel honored that you hold my opinion on this forum so high, however I don't hold sufficient rank to make radical changes.

And there'in lies the beauty of the system.... take no responsibility for thy actions because you're not a big enough part. That's the spirit.

You can rest assured you don't affect my blood pressure at all.

stl

[Nark]

Pushyboss,

Thanks. I hope all is well with you up north.

STL:
Marines have a rank structure that is highly respected. I don't call my subordinates "dude" like my Air Force compatriots. In the same sense I don't go knocking on the Commandant, or JCS door saying, "Do something." Abandoning responsibility? Hardly.
I stay within my realm.

There is a reason why someone needs to be the rank of O-6 or higher to speak in front of Congress.

[sky's the limit]

There is a reason why someone needs to be the rank of O-6 or higher to speak in front of Congress.

Yes, it's called politics.

We can't have Congress hearing from those people who are actually in the know can we? Would Congress have let the Veterans situation get this far if they'd been allowed to hear 1000 of them speak? I'd like to believe no.

stl

[Nark]

No, its because they don't know.

An O-6 is generally a Group or Regimental commander. These fall under a Wing or a Division, where the mission orders originate.

A Regimental commander will tell his 2 battalions what he wants done, while the third does another. His Battalion commanders do what they're asked passing the orders down the chain until it gets to guys like me. Where I'm leading a patrol, my neighbour could by leading a convoy which both fall under the same ultimate mission. But can be on eitherside of the field.

Do you start to see the it now? As much as I'd like to know what my friend is doing, it doesn't help my mission.

[Wilbur]

STL, you have a very juvinille view of how the world works. Sorry, buy you, Nark, me and everyone else can only make changes within the scope of our authority. It doesn't matter if you're talking the Marines, a company, or the boy scouts.

Whinning/protesting about other people's actions, or criticizing the actions of your employer's management is not taking responsibility. Refusing to do your job because of disagreement, although possibly a case of taking a principled stand, is not taking responsibility.

Instead of picking a fight with Nark, why don't you take responsibility for improving the things in this world you have authority to change, or, start working on getting yourself into a position where you will have the authority necessary?

[flyinphil]

I think the point of stl's post was merely to poke fun at Nark. Many Canadians hold individuals who give up citizenship with disdain, not unlike the current sentiment to Conrad Black.

Nark is only different in that his allegiance now lies to what has become a mercenary state on a mercenary mission.

From what I have read, all he can change with his rank is the paint on stationary objects, even then, only at the discretion of a superior.

[oldncold]

stl though it appears you are quite knowledgable and exp in flying afling wing. to which you have my respect. I have to dissagree with you in matters of the military. I am sure you will disagree with me
it it called democracy a novel idea only evolved in the last 300 yrs
from humble beginings of the magna carta.

the ability to disagree without some nutbar kickin your door or in yourcase right now a tentflap . is what as you have previously mentioned
been fought by our ancestors for what ever personal seasons
poverty /adventure / notions of glory, but still fought for.I will always be greatful that my grandad fought in the ww1. not because of I like war
but it taught me to appreciate the value of life and freedom.


nark is just doing what he believes is right for him and unlike many willing to put his life where his mouth is. good or bad he is excercising his democratic right to chose. after all the usa armed forces are all voluntary. just as you are excercising the right to diagree.

I leave you with these thoughts of how precious that life+ freedom is.
13 Korean aid workers that were trying to make a real difference in afganistian
are in real danger of being executed by people who could not give a flying f^776k about life. so would you not if try to stop those people and those like them that perpetuate that belief.??


armchair quarterbacking is easy the hard part is having the conviction
to do something about it,inspite of oppostion.

democracy is the least effective system to getting things done but given the other choices the most humane.

[Dust Devil]

I feel honored that you hold my opinion on this forum so high, however I don't hold sufficient rank to make radical changes.

And there'in lies the beauty of the system.... take no responsibility for thy actions because you're not a big enough part. That's the spirit.

You can rest assured you don't affect my blood pressure at all.

stl

you would perfer a military where it's up to the soldier to pick and choose his/her orders?

[LH]

Hey-------did I hear someone talk like the military is or should be a democracy? Sorry folks, but you are part of an organization that is in place to fight and kill other human beings and you getting to vote on that ain't part of the job description. You do as you are ordered to do and you are trained to work with many others in unision in order to be a success at what you are trained for....... killing people with all manner of weapons. If you don't wish to do that, then again, you will be shipped to an institution operated by your Service where AGAIN, you will do as you are ordered to do at ALL times and that will also include loosing whatever privacy you MAY have garnished in your former occupation/trade.

As far as Nark and his citizenship is concerned, that was HIS decision and I personally couldn't care less. Unless things have changed greatly, he can rise to about the rank of Sgt without doing so and there he will stay until he changes his citizenship. There are an extimated 14 million other North Americans who have the legal ability to serve in the Armed Forces of either the US OR Canada. Nark just joins that long list of some who did and came back home and some who didn't and stayed in the US. Whatever the case, if Nark was born Canadian he can never give it up unless he writes a personal letter saying so to the Ministry of Citizenship & Immigration. Until he does just that, he'll be Canadian once again the second his big toe nail crosses back over into Canadian territory..........and that doesn't change one iota no matter how many decades he wears the uniform of the USMC.

[oldncold]

NO the military is not a democrasy HOWEVER the individual has the democratic right of free choice whether or not to JOIN THE ARMED FORCES. AFTER the signing on the dotted line all bets are off.

nark chose to freely sign on the dotted line. and that was the point.

[Nark]

Promotions are not reflected on whether you are a citizen or not.

Promotions in the Marines to the rank of Sgt is based on several factors such as rifle score, PFT, Pro and Con marks etc...
Selection to Staff Sergeant and above is based upon a few more factors. No where is your citizenship in question, however the more rank you obtain, the more responsibility you have. With that comes a security clearance. This is where citizenship gets involved.

Officers are required to hold a clearance from day one. If you can't hold a clearance, you are shown to the door.


Renouncing my citizenship was a big decision at the time since then I have had to make even bigger ones. My beloved Corps isn't the weekend paint ball club.

Sleep tight tonight.

PS.The preverbal "dotted line" is really a solid one.

[LH]

Then things have changed since the Vietnam War era Nark. You didn't get past Sgt. without making the decision whether "Yes" or "No". There were exceptions, but they were for some singular reasons. There were Canadians who were WO's in the Army, but that was only because the Pentagon decided that there wasn't time to train them to Officer grade at some OCS School. However, it was felt that in order to command an a/c in the Air Cav that it was necessary to at least have a Senior NCO rank and therefore they were all WO's OR above. Times change and rules with them I guess.

Myself, I had dual citizenship, so the above never hampered me. I too found out very quickly that I hadn't joined "the weekend paint ball club" and the bastards even had the nerve to send me where the shooting was without asking whether I agreed or not. Can you imagine that?


oldncold ----------sounds to me like your "line" was solid also.

[altiplano]

[sky's the limit]

Nark, LH, Oldncold, and I'm sure a few others.(I seem to be attracting quite a following here)


I never said the Army should be "democratic." I personally think that word is somewhat overused, and the concept itself somewhat misleading. I simply asked why only active members of the military OVER a certain rank are allowed to address Congress? Particularly when there are some major issues at hand.

I'll give you quick and rather simple example of my reason why. The mineral exploration outfit I'm working with/for right now is obviously no where near the size of any Armed Forces, yet the VP of Logistics and President were in here the other day, and in about 3 minutes it became rather apparent that they lacked ANY real information about what's actually going on with the project. Why? Because the next level down on the Management ladder doesn't provide them the facts. This phenomenon exists in companies of every size, Governments, and Militarys alike.

Given the incredible number of, for lack of a better term scandals, that the U.S. military and Gov't are embroiled in at the moment, don't you think that some of the lower ranking officers and enlisted men/women should have the right to inform the powers that be of their opinions about these issues? At no time did I suggest that they be allowed to question orders in the field, I know plenty enough about military operations to understand that's not possible. However....

I don't believe that the continued use of the military as a primary means of conflict resolution is what we as a species need. Now, pay attention to this next part before you jump on me - I do understand there are still plausible reasons to use force at our point in history, I just don't buy for one minute that the force which is being used is either necessary or effective. I do believe a case can be made for Afghanistan, I just don't think it's Canada's fight.

Iraq, there's not a justification on Earth that makes it right. It's been a disaster on every level. Enough said.

I'm VERY aware of what previous conflicts have produced, both for us and the "losing" sides. There are two sides to every coin, and even our "Great Wars," in which my family was very active, had horrible and unconscionable effects on millions of people - effects that can be avoided in the future if war is not the first method of choice when it comes to conflict resolution.

Lastly, war, is NOT a noble and pure exploit as we are so indoctrinated to believe, it's something that benefits the few, and destroys the lives of the many. I have a hard time listening to people ignore these facts when stating they are doing "what's right for my country," or "following orders." At some point, the individual HAS to be able to say "no." You say the Armed forces are voluntary? What about the Class Action Lawsuits in the US at the moment by Veterans who were illegally recalled or extended in Iraq? You all joke about the dotted line being rather solid, it's no joke. What about the demographic of the average "grunt?" Same now as it ever was, the poor.

Edited to a Grade 5 reading level...

Many occupations have large risk factors built in, but the difference is I choose the risk I'm exposed to, the military chooses for you - I just question the motives of the people making those choices, and think you guys should too.

Anyway, been a long day's flying in the shit again/still, and I'm tired.

stl

[app flap]

wait... so you're saying that what you do with your whirly bird, lifting random stuff from point a to point b, in a civilian atmospher is a more dangerous job than a fighting soldier, in the middle of wherever, rifle in hand?

does your ego even fit into that R22? or do you have to long-line it behind you?

[sky's the limit]

wait... so you're saying that what you do with your whirly bird, lifting random stuff from point a to point b, in a civilian atmospher is a more dangerous job than a fighting soldier, in the middle of wherever, rifle in hand?

does your ego even fit into that R22? or do you have to long-line it behind you?

Can you read? NO. MOST people in the military NEVER see war zone. That is what I referred to. Just because a person is in the military, doesn't make them a FIGHTING person.



stl

Oh, and I don't fly an R22... But even if I did, my ego would have no trouble fitting inside what so ever.

[2R]

We live in a potential Warzone .
If Usama Bin Laden had his way Canada would have been attacked more than once and a long time ago.
It is because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us that we sleep safe in our beds.

Why else do you think that the Murderous Leaders of that mass mental disease hide in caves .Guess who they are hiding from ????

Sometimes i get nostalgic for the days when Lunatics dressed up as Napolean as the only people those mentally ill people hurt was themselves.It was quite a popular dellusion at one time .
The present epidemic of the mental disease of Jihadist is sad and the only cure may be a large Cull of the mental defects.

[Wilbur]

You are correct STL, most people in the military will never see a war zone or combat. However, that doesn't mean they have a choice in the matter if they happen to become one of the minority that does. When you join the military you agree to take on any task given to you, regardless of risk, even if it means almost certain death for you. You don't get to say, "no, I only agreed to do safe jobs when I joined." Likewise, you don't get to opt out because you disagree with the politics behind the mission. The only time you can say "no" is when you have been given a manifestly unlawful order. It's all or nothing, and if you can't live with that then you should never set foot in a recruiting centre.

[Nark]

I have to disagree with the assupmtion of most servicemen will never see a war zone or combat.

I'm 5 weeks away from going to Iraq for the first time, however the majority of Marines I work with have been/seen/fought in war zones not once but several times. My first duty station assignment had me in an area where Iraq wasn't in our "area of responsibilty." Bullets and bombs exploding aren't limited to just Iraq and Afgahnistan. (I'm starting to sound like a broken record now)


The Department of the Navy authorizes anyone who has been in combat to wear this ribbon.