There seems to be a few questions in this regard, so to answer the low- timers, if you were (or are) in the position to hire a low timer for, say, a 185 summer job in Northwestern Ontario, how much time would you require?
Assuming quality instruction from an instructor who also flies on line as well.
Minimum training time on Floats
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ontheslide
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Cat Driver
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I am over in Barkley Sound trying to get away for some R&R before I have to go back to work full time.
So I want to put my thoughts here and see what others think.
I voted for 100 hours as it comes closest to what I plan to use in my new bush pilot training scheme I'm planning on starting once I get some time to do it.
The most important issue is for pilots to learn the various skills and thought processes that make up a bush pilots basic need to know things.
The airplane should be the cheapest to operate you can find, because all airplanes are basically handled the same, so why not learn on the cheapest.
I am going to use a PA11 Cub clone that I am building and sell fractional shares in it so the pilots can fly as many hours as they can afford, under strict supervision and using a structured course to keep the learning process focused...and it will be a full imersion type of learning process where they live flying during the training process.
The first five hours will be on the Aerobat Taildragger I sold as I have a rent back arrangement with the new owner.
The five hours will be to get them using their hands and feet to fly the airplane including recovery from unusual attitudes by doing the basic aerobatic manouvers...rolls...loops..and spins both normal and snap...
If they need more than five hours..so be it, but I won't start them on floats until they can fly an airplane first.
I hope to have a Husky on whipline amphibs to use to commute back and forth to the mainland for however long I will be working on the training thing for AirSea Lines.
It should be interesting to see how this thread goes.
So I want to put my thoughts here and see what others think.
I voted for 100 hours as it comes closest to what I plan to use in my new bush pilot training scheme I'm planning on starting once I get some time to do it.
The most important issue is for pilots to learn the various skills and thought processes that make up a bush pilots basic need to know things.
The airplane should be the cheapest to operate you can find, because all airplanes are basically handled the same, so why not learn on the cheapest.
I am going to use a PA11 Cub clone that I am building and sell fractional shares in it so the pilots can fly as many hours as they can afford, under strict supervision and using a structured course to keep the learning process focused...and it will be a full imersion type of learning process where they live flying during the training process.
The first five hours will be on the Aerobat Taildragger I sold as I have a rent back arrangement with the new owner.
The five hours will be to get them using their hands and feet to fly the airplane including recovery from unusual attitudes by doing the basic aerobatic manouvers...rolls...loops..and spins both normal and snap...
If they need more than five hours..so be it, but I won't start them on floats until they can fly an airplane first.
I hope to have a Husky on whipline amphibs to use to commute back and forth to the mainland for however long I will be working on the training thing for AirSea Lines.
It should be interesting to see how this thread goes.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
As i posted in another thread, I believe at LEAST 50 for a job flying as captain of something (closer to 100+ would be better though obviously) I also think the float rating should be more than 7 hours (takes 10 to learn to fly in the dark but only 7 to learn to land on water?) I think the rating should be 20-25 hours job at 50+.
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Cat Driver
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I see there are two out of four votes who think the seven hours training on floats is sufficient for a company to put them on a Cessna 185 to fly for hire>
Could you give us your opinion on why you believe this?to hire a low timer for, say, a 185 summer job in Northwestern Ontario, how much time would you require?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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tofo
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cause I have 300 on a TO and 7 worked for me. any other situation 50 or more would oviously be better but that's comming from a guy who did his training in two days and doesen't know what a 50 hr course offers for practical experiance. Having said that my instructor had a 1000hrs in the lower mainland and victoria, and as a student I was a little "concerned" about how his knoledge would translate to what I would be doing when I rolled a float.
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tofo
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cause I was going on a TO and 7 worked for me. any other situation 50 or more would oviously be better but that's comming from a guy who did his training in two days and doesen't know what a 50 hr course offers for practical experiance. Having said that my instructor had a 1000hrs in the lower mainland and victoria, and as a student I was a little "concerned" about how his knoledge would translate to what I would be doing when I rolled a float.
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North Shore
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My vote was for 50, but only because that was what I had when I got my first bush job. The company babysat me for another 10 or so, and then it was off on my own - and don't screw up! 300 hours later, and I thought I had the tiger by the whiskers, and damned near killed myself by sheer stupidity.
I don't really think that there's much that can be taught past 50 hours - after that, you should have the skills to figure things out by yourself...
I don't really think that there's much that can be taught past 50 hours - after that, you should have the skills to figure things out by yourself...
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
I dont think you can put a number on how many hours you 'need'.
Everyone is different.
Some guys/gals have lived around airplanes their whole lives, and could handle that 185 with a 7hr rating. Some people may need 100 hrs of dual from the owner/ good line pilot before they are ready to be cut loose.
It all depends on past experience. Flying or life experience and attitude.
Thats what the CP should be for. Going for a ride with the person to determine how much training they need for their operation.
However in general, I think 50 hrs of quality instruction, riding along on charters, seeing what/how it is done should suffice
I dont think many operators are going to send a fellow up with their $150,000 airplane and customers lives and not trust them.
Everyone is different.
Some guys/gals have lived around airplanes their whole lives, and could handle that 185 with a 7hr rating. Some people may need 100 hrs of dual from the owner/ good line pilot before they are ready to be cut loose.
It all depends on past experience. Flying or life experience and attitude.
Thats what the CP should be for. Going for a ride with the person to determine how much training they need for their operation.
However in general, I think 50 hrs of quality instruction, riding along on charters, seeing what/how it is done should suffice
I dont think many operators are going to send a fellow up with their $150,000 airplane and customers lives and not trust them.
What's wrong with 7 hours if you have the right pilot and train them properly? Company training would be in addition to the original 7, so if you add say 5 more of real training, and then some line indoc. I don't see why they couldn't be cut loose under strict supervision.
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shimmydampner
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Cat Driver
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Shimmey:
The reason I am including the basic aerobatic part is so the pilots can get their hands and feet working to control the airplane in all attitudes and can keep the center line on take off and landing in a tail wheel airplane.
To make for a good bush pilot you must be able to control the airplane at all times no matter what attitude the SOB gets its self into.
Hell if you are going to be a good hands and feet pilot you may as well learn the whole flight attitudes regime.
The good thing about fractional ownership is they can fly lots of hours due to the low cost of operating a homebuilt Cub on floats compared to a flight schools certified airplanes with all the cost baggage that is need to operate a commercial flight school.
My plan is to fly private registered airplanes and cut the costs way down, I of course am not a " real certified flight instructor " but I am hoping that my clients will be able to get beyond worring about that little detail.
Cat
The reason I am including the basic aerobatic part is so the pilots can get their hands and feet working to control the airplane in all attitudes and can keep the center line on take off and landing in a tail wheel airplane.
To make for a good bush pilot you must be able to control the airplane at all times no matter what attitude the SOB gets its self into.
Hell if you are going to be a good hands and feet pilot you may as well learn the whole flight attitudes regime.
The good thing about fractional ownership is they can fly lots of hours due to the low cost of operating a homebuilt Cub on floats compared to a flight schools certified airplanes with all the cost baggage that is need to operate a commercial flight school.
My plan is to fly private registered airplanes and cut the costs way down, I of course am not a " real certified flight instructor " but I am hoping that my clients will be able to get beyond worring about that little detail.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I would think you should be able to pretty much cover everything by 50'ish hours... most people a lot less. Then its a matter of giving them enough air time and keep them up to date on their new skills, daily flying to keep things fresh and continue to polish. That said there are some students who would take a heck of a lot more time; if ever being someone I'ld want to sign the plane out to.
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Driving Rain
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Could you give us your opinion on why you believe this?[/quote]Cat Driver wrote:I see there are two out of four votes who think the seven hours training on floats is sufficient for a company to put them on a Cessna 185 to fly for hire>
to hire a low timer for, say, a 185 summer job in Northwestern Ontario, how much time would you require?
My first float job the company gave me my rating. 6 hours is all the time they gave me before cutting me loose in a 180. My company instructor is a legend in the business. Some 10,000 seaplane hours later I'm still at it. I suppose if I @#$!-up now Transport Canada and the Nav Canada pundents will look back on my lack of initial training as the cause.
I didn't stop learning at 7 hours. Yes, I scared myself a few times but I rather be lucky than good any day.
I remember my first dispatch in glassy water conditions. I had never done a real glassy water landing and told the boss I didn't think it was a good idea. He agreed and sent the other pilot and let me practice a few in a favourable area with his son giving me my last and now 7th hour of training.
Driving rain, what type of aircraft did you do your initial training in?
I bet it was something that had a tailwheel.
Those hands and feet skills are not very common anymore right out of school, (thanks cessna and your 152/172's)thus why a 7 hr float rating for an average person these days is no wheres near enough.
I bet it was something that had a tailwheel.
Those hands and feet skills are not very common anymore right out of school, (thanks cessna and your 152/172's)thus why a 7 hr float rating for an average person these days is no wheres near enough.
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Driving Rain
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185 Guy your right! I did most of my PPL on a 115 hp Citabria 7ECA.185_guy wrote:Driving rain, what type of aircraft did you do your initial training in?
I bet it was something that had a tailwheel.
Those hands and feet skills are not very common anymore right out of school, (thanks cessna and your 152/172's)thus why a 7 hr float rating for an average person these days is no wheres near enough.
I had an industrial accident and shattered both heals and ankles. I could no longer apply the heal brakes on the Citabria so I had to switch over to Cessna's. I was in casts for months. Because of the extent of my injuries the doctors wouldn't allow walking casts until much later in my recovery. That didn't stop me. I found I could still apply rudder and brakes with both casts and continued my training.
