A bad day at Oshkosh....

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:24 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/27/airsho ... ef=topnews

This was one of them:

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:35 pm

terribly hard to look at those photo's, I can hardly watch movie plane wrecks, let alone real ones. I wish people could be rebuilt...
I also hope this doesn't refuel the 'ground all valuable warbirds cause they're all getting wrecked' fire.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:25 pm

RatherBeFlyingInCanada · Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:26 am

.300 Weatherby Mag · Post by **.300 Weatherby Mag** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:34 am

Very sad.

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:38 am

How did that lack of seperation happen? Both landing on intersecting runways, lack of radio calls? Tragic.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:09 am

Dash-Ate wrote:How did that lack of seperation happen? Both landing on intersecting runways, lack of radio calls? Tragic.

Formation landing after a air racing demo.

http://www.aero-news.net/news/featurest ... &Dynamic=1

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:34 am

I do believe 'Stang' makes her home at the Fargo ND Air museum.

Tragic and sad.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:12 am

Here is a link to the video:

http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?videoi ... 3b0f149c4d

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:39 am

That's dignified footage of something that we all hate to see.

Did anyone hear an engine spool up at or just before impact? I thought I did.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:45 pm

I'd like to think they actually "practice" formation landings rather than just "show up" like so many "Walter Mitty" wannabes, but it sure doesn't show. I'm really surprised this sort of thing isn't a more regular sight at OSH. Too bad they couldn't have done in a couple of 172's?
Big wallets + war birds with lots of power = way too many accidents. But hey, that's just my opinion.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:35 pm

Doc wrote:I guess anything goes when you're a hot shot? Too bad they couldn't have done in a couple of 172's?
Big wallets + war birds with lots of power = way too many accidents. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Huh, ok, when was the last time that a warbird had a accident on landing????
The guys I know that fly these birds fly because they love to, not because they have big wallets, hell one of them works for jazz so your comments are so far out in left field that there worthless in this case.

My sympathies out to the family of the pilots involved

Greg87 · Post by **Greg87** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:44 pm

Doc wrote:I'd like to think they actually "practice" formation landings rather than just "show up" like so many "Walter Mitty" wannabes, but it sure doesn't show. I'm really surprised this sort of thing isn't a more regular sight at OSH. Too bad they couldn't have done in a couple of 172's?
Big wallets + war birds with lots of power = way too many accidents. But hey, that's just my opinion.

In some cases this may be true, but knowing of the person killed in this crash, I think you would be crazy to accuse him of being an unskilled pilot that only flys warbirds because he has money. Gerry Beck has a long history in Warbirds, likely as skilled as any other warbird pilot. I think it is in poor taste to talk about him as being a "hot shot".

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:05 pm

Well, I seem to remember a P51 rolling it up in a ball just last week. Right here on this site.
You're right...the "hot shot" comment is gone. That was bad taste, and I'm sorry I stuck that in. Should have proof read my post BEFORE I hit SUBMIT.
But I used to think the trailing aircraft should land first? To prevent the rear ender we saw here?

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:00 pm

My feeling is that fatigue may have played a part in this...

The A had more energy (altitude) on short final, which translated into velocity as the roundout occured, which lead to the A overtaking the D shortly after the D touched down and slowed further. I wonder how the A driver saw things unfold...

Just my observation of the video.

What a tragic loss.

Strega · Post by **Strega** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:22 pm

Blue Side Down wrote:My feeling is that fatigue may have played a part in this...

The A had more energy (altitude) on short final, which translated into velocity as the roundout occured, which lead to the A overtaking the D shortly after the D touched down and slowed further. I wonder how the A driver saw things unfold...

Just my observation of the video.

What a tragic loss.

That shouldt be the case,, the "hot side" "cold side" runway should have been in effect.

I hate to say it,, but I think this was just a case of "he screwed the pooch"

Terrible all around.

yak driver · Post by **yak driver** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:35 pm

If you were not sitting in on the briefing, or knew the pilots personally. It's pretty poor taste all the way around to be making any comments on exactly what happened.

Obviously something went very wrong. Thoughts out to all involved.

Mark

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:44 pm

My sympathies to friends & family...

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Here's my $0.02 on the whole thing. Crucify me if you will.

Yeah it may be cool to do a formation landing, or flight, or roll your Pitts on takeoff or spin the shit out of a C152, or have a crosswind you feel uncomfortable with... there's all kinds of maneuvers we can all do with planes if we want. Heck, an airplane is an awesome 3 dimensional machine.

But for my sake and all that love you. Go around! Bail out! Do what you must do to fucking fly! You are not cool if you are dead. You know when it is wrong. Full power, get the @#$! out and get your head together.

It saddens me every time I hear about one of us dying. Let's fucking stop it! And when cool planes are involved, it saddens me, pisses me off, angers me and makes me fucking weep even more. Goddamnit, I'm drunk and fucking pissed off at this. We MUST MAKE IT STOP!

-istp

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:39 am

istp...BINGO!!! Well put. Almost every time somebody dies it's due to a brain fart. Lets get our acts together! Accidents happen way too often. Lives are lost.....for NO reason at all. Why? Because we do something STUPID! And I'm not talking airs hows here. Our record is bloody dismal! And it's nobody's fault but our own.

Bob A. Booey · Post by **Bob A. Booey** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:07 am

Like I say, I cannot take an airplane into the air, and do something to kill myself that someone hasn't done before. I think we've run out of new ways to crash. This makes every accident, every mishap, an unnecessary one.

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:34 pm

First of all...my condolences to the family of the lost pilot.

I have done a little bit of formation flying and maybe some of the airshow guys can chime in on this. I found it odd the the aircraft in trail was higher than the lead. All the formation landings I've done have the rear aircraft touching down first and then the lead. This prevents the rear aircraft from catching up to the lead during the landing which is what appears to happen in the video.

Greg87 · Post by **Greg87** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:19 pm

At every airshow I go to I say (usually to myself) "I wish they wouldn't do that" at least a few times. I hate watching aerobatic performers because while most routines are very cool, is it really worth the risk??? I would be just as happy to go to a show and watch a much toned down version of the show. This has been a bad year for high profile crashes, including the Blue Angel, the Snowbird, Gerry Beck and Jim Leroy. I know accidents happen, but they don't need to! All of these accidents, as well as many others in the past are likely a result of pushing things too far. I hope I never have to see such a disaster myself, especially if I knew the person. From what I've seen and heard, this accident was a result of some problem on landing, with Gerry Beck attempting to limit the crash to his own aircraft, rather than taking the other one with him. Anyone know what could have caused them to be that close?

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:33 pm

Doc wrote:I'd like to think they actually "practice" formation landings rather than just "show up" like so many "Walter Mitty" wannabes, but it sure doesn't show. I'm really surprised this sort of thing isn't a more regular sight at OSH. Too bad they couldn't have done in a couple of 172's?
Big wallets + war birds with lots of power = way too many accidents. But hey, that's just my opinion.

My condolences to the pilot who lost his life doing what he loved. Let your guard down for a second at the wrong time and we have discussions in threads like this.

I can shed some light on the goings on of Oshkosh and any other airshow in the US. If you want to fly formation in a warbird at an airshow in the US you need a FAST (Formation And Safety Training) card. You need a certain amount of hours on type and in formation to get a wingman qualification and more for leader. Formation landings aren't part of the ride. So yes they have practiced formation before, but maybe not have landings. Don't know if there was any practice with each other. That's the difference between the US and Canada. In the CARs it states that you must have flown in formation at least 12 days in advance with the people who you will be flying with in the show. In the US, that isn't the case, all you need is a FAST card. Although that should mean that you have been trained to a certain standard. To keep your FAST card you need to have flown 1 formation flight per year and have attended a formation clinic run by a FAST signatory organization. So barring any real info on the pilots or A/C other than the video, the guys have had training on flying formation. That said, wingman should always, and I mean always, be lower than the leader unless specifically briefed. In all the years I did formation airshows the only time a wingman was higher than the lead was for a photo shoot in straight and level and it was well briefed before we got into the air.

From what I saw in the video that was the mistake and see istp's post for what should have been done. Mind you, that's only speculation.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:33 am

I have flown hundreds of formation landings in tailwheel aircraft which are blind forward in the landing attitude, most of them 2-plane, but some 3-plane and 4-plane.

Consider a 2-plane formation landing, which is the simplest. We usually approach and land line abreast, instead of echelon. We have a very simple protocol: the aircraft on the left (usually the lead, but not always) owns the left hand side of the runway. The aircraft on the right owns the right hand side of the runway. Both aircraft consider the runway centerline the "edge" of their runway, and DO NOT CROSS IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

This very simple protocol allows for safe formation landings, because either aircraft can overtake the other during the rollout. It shouldn't happen, with simultaneous power reduction, but ... our protocol actually converts the formation landing into two solo landings. It looks like formation, but the aircraft are free to move independently.

Obviously, you need a fairly wide runway. My personal minimums are 150 foot wide runway, which gives each aircraft at 75 foot wide runway. 100 feet is a bit tight (50 feet per aircraft) but is doable with two skilled, current pilots, 200 feet (100 feet per aircraft) is pure gravy.

Stream (or sequence) landings are a completely different kettle of fish, and are extremely dangerous in tailwheel aircraft, because of the loss of visual which will occur in the landing attitude. Quite a different protocol is required for this. A different story, and I am sure a boring one for most of you.

Anyways, I do wish that people would leave airshow flying to the airshow pilots. If you don't have a current ICAS card with "formation aerobatics" on it, well ...