Industry shortage?

plainfixer · Post by **plainfixer** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:31 am

If its got wings:
My post is an answer to "Mecca". Not my current situation.
If you are an AME in a management position, then well done, this is what we need to see more of.
In the bigger companies, payscale and hiring decisions are made in HR departments. That is where I see my problems.
For the new guys/gals just starting in their careers, work in places where you can get lots of experience, lots of various tasks including cross trades, and then move on to chase the money, chase airframe types or chase companies abroad.
It is time companies understand the worth of an AME.

flyingaddict · Post by **flyingaddict** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:39 pm

I am in a unique position. I am a 7 year AME M1, M2, working for a small charter/maintenance shop as a full time mechanic and pilot. I get paid $22/hr full time whether I am flying, fueling the plane, doing maintenance, or shooting the s*** over a cup of coffee.

I was getting paid $35/hr as an M2 contractor and you couldn't pry me back to that job. I am here to stay. Sometimes it's not the pay. but the working conditions and respect that you give your employees. Word gets around about the sweatshops (like Cascade Aerospace) and people will avoid them, no matter how much they offer.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:05 am

calnickel wrote:I am in a unique position. I am a 7 year AME M1, M2, working for a small charter/maintenance shop as a full time mechanic and pilot. I get paid $22/hr full time whether I am flying, fueling the plane, doing maintenance, or shooting the s*** over a cup of coffee.

I was getting paid $35/hr as an M2 contractor and you couldn't pry me back to that job. I am here to stay. Sometimes it's not the pay. but the working conditions and respect that you give your employees. Word gets around about the sweatshops (like Cascade Aerospace) and people will avoid them, no matter how much they offer.

Jeezuz man, you are most certainly underestimating the value of yourself. I too am a pilot/engineer and get paid by the duty hour when I am flying. Now depending on what you are flying, you should make more than that for the wrenching part at least.

Human Factor · Post by **Human Factor** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:37 am

Meecka wrote:My employer tells me that the industry standard pay for an AME M1 Working in a medium sized shop is 18 to 24 dollars an hour.... And that my being payed 20.50 an hour (been licenced 3 years, been at the company for 3 years as well), is pretty good. Any thoughts folks... I'm more interested in what the industry standard for pay REALY is...

Meecka and I graduated together and therefore have the same experience and have been licensed for the same amount of time. When I walked away from being an AME last fall, I was making $25/hour as an M1 AME at a float operator in BC. It was a good gig, Mon - Fri, 8am-4:30pm but when I was offered a federal gov't job in Ontario making more money with full benefits, better working conditions and less responsibility, I leapt at it. Sure my license will expire in a few years but I no longer need it... I'm almost retired now!

flyingaddict · Post by **flyingaddict** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:31 pm

twotter wrote:
calnickel wrote:I am in a unique position. I am a 7 year AME M1, M2, working for a small charter/maintenance shop as a full time mechanic and pilot. I get paid $22/hr full time whether I am flying, fueling the plane, doing maintenance, or shooting the s*** over a cup of coffee.

I was getting paid $35/hr as an M2 contractor and you couldn't pry me back to that job. I am here to stay. Sometimes it's not the pay. but the working conditions and respect that you give your employees. Word gets around about the sweatshops (like Cascade Aerospace) and people will avoid them, no matter how much they offer.
Jeezuz man, you are most certainly underestimating the value of yourself. I too am a pilot/engineer and get paid by the duty hour when I am flying. Now depending on what you are flying, you should make more than that for the wrenching part at least.

A couple of questions:

How much do you make?
How many flight hours do you have?
How large is the company you work for?
Are you a contractor?
Do you get to see your family every night?
Do you within 100 miles of a place that has a 'fort', 'north', 'upper', or something to that effect in its name?

Employer: "Oh! You have a pilot license AND you're an AME!. Okay! Here's your Cessna 180, here's this lake waaaaaaaaayyy over here. We'll see you in October."

I only have 500hrsTT and I fly small Cessnas for a small outfit. I know I can make more money as a mechanic. If you read my post I was making way more. But I don't want to work in the north (I am in southern BC), and I don't want the BS with bigger companies. The quality of life I have is worth more than the money.

scouty-dog · Post by **scouty-dog** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:31 pm

tellyourkidstogetarealjob wrote:There's people available. There just aren't people available for free.

Plus, it's cheaper to work your existing staff to death and wring your hands and moan about the labour shortage than to hire someone new.

Basically, you pay them less than a living wage so they become dependent on overtime. At any sign of dissent threaten to cut off overtime. As a group we're not too smart so it works every time - just like Pavlov's dogs.

It's all taken from a Progressive Management textbook printed in 1842.

The bright AME's have long since gone to other industries during the current economic upswing.

Wow, I summed up the industry this way too in my 10 yr. career. I started while I was in grade 12 in '97, and have since left the industry on my 10 yr. anniversary. I really don't see things changing except maybe a little more money trickling down to us mushrooms. I have since concluded that ames are swept out of sight into the back hangar, and treated with little respect. Recently, I observed this from a former ame acting as a DOM. It made me shake my head, and realize that he had conformed to the typical 'front-office' staff mentality.

I really hope the ames out there get the respect that you deserve. Working nights, signing your name/number, and dealing with stress is not easy, and something else must suffer to accommodate that. (Usually family)

KISS_MY_TCAS · Post by **KISS_MY_TCAS** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:38 pm

Wow, someone selling out for 22/hr in a dual role is why we are all eating Kraft Dinner. As long as people whore themselves for sub-standard pay the entire industry is threatened, keep up with the "yay for the lifestyle" bit, you're fucking all of your collegues over (and no, I don't work in the North and I have a happily settled family, a house I doubled the value in equity in 3 yrs., and a new truck). I wouldn't fix lawnmowers for 22/hr, let alone flying AND fixing aircraft, 150s or not. Twotter is also dual role, but he has learned over the years what the ink on his licenses is worth. flyingaddict, hopefully one day you will snap out of the dream you are having, it is a cancer on the industry.

scouty-dog and tellyourkidstogetarealjob hit the nail on the head. The economic boom is nice, because like flyingaddict it is fucking the industry over. There is nobody to hire but apprentices, and the experienced guys are running like fat kids to candy stores. I think aviation in this country is in a lot of trouble, funny TC is trying to rid themselves of AME licensing at the same time.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:41 am

A couple of questions:

How much do you make?
How many flight hours do you have?
How large is the company you work for?
Are you a contractor?
Do you get to see your family every night?
Do you within 100 miles of a place that has a 'fort', 'north', 'upper', or something to that effect in its name?

Employer: "Oh! You have a pilot license AND you're an AME!. Okay! Here's your Cessna 180, here's this lake waaaaaaaaayyy over here. We'll see you in October."

I only have 500hrsTT and I fly small Cessnas for a small outfit. I know I can make more money as a mechanic. If you read my post I was making way more. But I don't want to work in the north (I am in southern BC), and I don't want the BS with bigger companies. The quality of life I have is worth more than the money.

OK, some answers for you..

1. A hell of a lot more than you, I wouldn't get out of bed for what you are accepting.
2. About 10000.
3. Pretty fair size.
4. No.
5. Yes.
6. Yes, I live not too far from Ft. Langley, North Delta and the Upper levels highway.

My quality of life is excellant and I certainly didn't sell myself short to get it. I'm glad that you are happy and was not trying to crap on you, I was only trying to show that you are worth more than you are getting for your maintenance work.

wingnut · Post by **wingnut** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:44 am

arguing over wages is pointless unless all aspects are taken in to consideration...

the discretionary income is what is important. meaning how much is left over once cost of living is taken care of.

a fellow living in vancouver making 60 dollars an hour with an average $400 000 mortgage is no better off then a fellow in saskatoon making 30/hr with an average $200 000 mortgage.

bottom line is how fast you can make it to retirement... with out going postal!

flyingaddict · Post by **flyingaddict** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:17 am

I wasn't trying to crap on you either. But I could never get a flying/maintenance job in the lower mainland with my hours and afford to have the same quality of life.

Could I walk into your place of employment and ask for a job for a wage you'd think would be acceptable (licensed for four years, 500TT, 15 floats)? And be able to buy a house 15 min away from work without a second income or being housebroke?

Besides, Cascade (where I was contracting) doesn't offer much more per hour for maintenance wages (unless you've worked there forever, and the wages get eaten up in union dues). Just about every shop in the lower mainland was offering low 20s/hr for start besides AC.

scouty-dog · Post by **scouty-dog** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:35 pm

wingnut wrote:arguing over wages is pointless unless all aspects are taken in to consideration...

the discretionary income is what is important. meaning how much is left over once cost of living is taken care of.

a fellow living in vancouver making 60 dollars an hour with an average $400 000 mortgage is no better off then a fellow in saskatoon making 30/hr with an average $200 000 mortgage.

bottom line is how fast you can make it to retirement... with out going postal!

It's tough finding a decent house in Stoon for 200K nowadays. Check out MLS and feel free to correct your statement and shit your pants. You can find a small condo with street parking for that price, and if you want to raise a family, a home is going to cost more than that.
Good luck finding a job that pays 30$ in Stoon area too. Most companies will loudly (ignorantly) tout that it is a cheap and affordable place to live. Yeah-5 years ago!!!
I'm not saying that the 'Vancouver' option is viable. An AME simply can't afford a home out there right now. If discretionary income is what someone is after, go move to a small isolated town where a home is still worth 75K.
My argument is that good AME's (read-experienced/trustworthy/and not a fucking clod) are tough to find, and wages should reflect that. The 'living-the-dream' bullshit is naivety at it's best, and is what employers love and welcome.

ad81 · Post by **ad81** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:12 pm

I don't buy into the "living the dream" BS one bit. Anyone who subscribes to that crap is just getting screwed and doesn't know it yet.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:08 pm

These debates are best summed up with; "to each their own'.

I've been contracting for 7 years, never been below $100,000/year, all expenses paid, living out of my suitcase from country to country, hotel to hotel, and absolutely love it. Most of my buddies can't see the attraction.

On the other hand I can appreciate where flyingaddict is coming from. If it works for him then good for him.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:35 pm

There must be a major shortage. I posted a job ad some time ago offering $60000/year and I didn't get one response. $60,000/yr seems like a decent enough salary to me. It's what I pay myself and I get by alright.

Meecka · Post by **Meecka** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:12 pm

$60 000 a year and you got no response!? I can't believe that.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:54 pm

Meecka wrote:$60 000 a year and you got no response!? I can't believe that.

Not a single response. Maybe people just don't want to move. I don't think Regina is that bad. Best place I've lived.

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:25 pm

Dust Devil wrote:
Meecka wrote:$60 000 a year and you got no response!? I can't believe that.
Not a single response. Maybe people just don't want to move. I don't think Regina is that bad. Best place I've lived.

From my perspective, and feel free to correct me on this, $60K per annumn = $27.27 per hour. Or And I'm WAGGING here, around 17.00 after taxes and all the other mandatory deductions. I have an AMO, one man operation with Mechanical and structures approval. Shop rate at $65.00. Biggest waste of time I have ever gotten into. The local area AME changes $50.00 per hour working out of the back of his truck, and he's busier then I am. No deductions and everything's a write off for him.

To keep flat,fat and happy I take a couple of outside contracts a year. Working a month out, a couple of months home a year, I easily clear over $100K, Plus I usually get all the GST back and a whole truckload of write offs.

I can easily see why you didn't get a response/application. In the long run, a full time job is not that attractive anymore.
Not that there was anything wrong with your offer or the location( Well maybe the location but that's neither here nor there.)

From my stand point, and I can only assume (go ahead some moronic fool make a comment about assumptions) based upon what I've been exposed to from fellow AMEs, the options for work, work locations and bonuses, etc, etc, are so broad and varied, that $60K today just ain't enough coin.

Contractors can easily make that working 8 to 4 without OT, after hours call-ins, a boss that feel s he/she owns you and feels that you owe them. (Again I'm not impling that this applies to you DD)

My position is and always will be, if I'm not making at least 80K a year to start, I'm not applying. Period. And for 80K, it would have to be one heck of an employer with a heck of alot going for him/her.

Geez, I got more tongue then a Mountie's boot leg!

In summation:

Too may opportunities, too many employers, much more money available in nicer places!!

And I still think they screwed up the spelling for Regina! That's where they train the RCMP isn't it?? Should start with a V!! LOL

log sheet · Post by **log sheet** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:18 am

Yes , it is hard to find AME's. Some people are happy where they are living and don't want to move, some people are leaving the industry.
With a shortage, we need to all stand up and say," SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"

Seriously, for a group of professionals doing what we are doing, we should make more money!
A lot of people seem to think that right now we are getting a decent wage.
20 yrs ago(not in aviation) my Father was making what I am making now, and on the east coast. I'm pretty sure the cost of living has gone up since then! A friend of mine made 15 bucks an hour on a work term for electrical engineering 14 years ago! A co-worker Father makes 8k/month as a construction electrician. I like to think the job we(AME's) do is as important/professional as these higher paying careers!
Think about it!
Cheers!

Oh before anyone else say's it. Logsheet your full of sh*t!

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:15 am

I'll just stick to contracted maintanence for the time being I guess.

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:18 pm

Dust Devil wrote:I'll just stick to contracted maintanence for the time being I guess.

Saskabush!! Ah geez Dusty, tell me you're not the poor bugger operating that old, tired and ugly Aztec outa there are ya??

If you are, fer Gawd's sake dump that thing PDQ!!

hidditted fer spolling mistekes by BR

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:41 pm

Bullet Remington wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:I'll just stick to contracted maintanence for the time being I guess.

Saskabush!! Ah geez Dusty, tell me you're not the poor bugger operating that old, tired and ugly Aztec outa there are ya??

If you are, fer Gawd's sake dump that thing PDQ!!

hidditted fer spolling mistekes by BR

No aztec here

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:48 am

Dusty,

Don't worry about Bullet, he's just a crusty old fart who's pissed off at the world..

Bullet, when you are you going to come out to gods country so we can buy each other a beer?

Have fun boys..

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:28 pm

twotter wrote:Dusty,

Don't worry about Bullet, he's just a crusty old fart who's pissed off at the world..

Bullet, when you are you going to come out to gods country so we can buy each other a beer?

Have fun boys..

I think he's got the wrong guy anyway. I perfer pimpin my ho. not aztecs.

KISS_MY_TCAS · Post by **KISS_MY_TCAS** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:45 pm

The dirty Aztecs are further north than Dust Devil is. Dust Devil, if your offer was $15K more you would gain a pile of resumes. It would put you in line with other (and albeit larger) operators in SK, but less than 12,566lbs. is only attractive to some and other companies nearby offer M1/M2 for a lot more $$. I did look at your ad and know of your operation, but could not consider applying due to the loss of income it would create.