PASCO please don't request your IFR clearance till READY

[bigfssguy]

I have had this happen to me a few times in the last little while. I was asked for the advisory and clearance at h+07 they never actually departed til h+21. Now i didn;t get there clearance since i saw the door was still open. Iasked to call when ready for clearance when ready to taxi. They called again at h+11 still with the door open so i waited til i saw the door closing.

Of course i got a snarky remark asking about the clearancearound h+16 explaining to me that they could not taxi til they had there clearance due to workload in the cockpit. Now i understand that pilots are busy but call 1 minute before your ACTUALLY ready to taxi. It really doesn;t take that long to get it maybe 30 seconds if it is a semi complex clearance.

Now if you have to wait for your clearance becasue of some inbound or outbound aircraft then guess what. If you had gotten your clearance when you had initially asked for it you would have been holding up your fellow pilots making them mad and making the FSS look like a meathead too.

We as FSS are looking to have an expeditious flow of traffic. Normally it is first come first serve. But if there is a good reason like they said earlier about programing the FMS tell the FSS about it and how long til taxi so we can relay it onto the controllers. If its a reasonable request the controller and FSS will do there best to accomadate.

we aren't trying screw the aircrews over, we're just trying to make things as smooth as possible for all the aircraft operating at the airports in question. Call 1 minute before taxi and you'll probably have your clearance before the dunlops begin to turn. Unless there is extrenuating circumstances then explain that to the FSS or controller and i'm sure they'll whatever they can to accomadate. But if you don't explain and you go ahead and and get the clearance 15 minutes before your ready to go your likely to hold up another person who just may try and screw you over next time. Thus starting a whole johnson measuring contest which really can compound and get worse over time.

[lilfssister]

In Europe they have a system which would solve some of the problems stated in this thread.
When ready to start, the flight crew asks for start-up clearance and the controller puts the IFR clearance "on request" with the appropriate ATC unit.
When ready for taxi the crew obtains taxi clearance and proceeds as instructed. The controller will then ask "ready to copy" and the crew will then copy the IFR clearance.
At busier airports with a seperate clearance delivery frequency, the IFR clearance is requested and issued, but will not be activated until the "request start up clearance" call is received from the crew. Any subequent delay to starting engines or starting to taxi has to be reported to ATC.
As far as priority is concerned, it is the "request taxi clearance"call which decides who goes first out to the runway, although, of course, ATC will take other factors into consideration when deciding the order of take-off.
Do you think the system will work here?

Two different scenarios, pontius. FSS do not give taxi clearance or decide who goes to the runway first.

[xsbank]

Flying around the same area every day, your routing is going to vary very little. You can pre-program the FMS with your expected routing as per the flight plan you filed and then if the clearance differs, make the corrections before you depart. If the same a/c is travelling the same routes, the flight plan can be 'canned' in the FMS and just recalled when needed, reducing the workload significantly. The clearance discussion/crew briefing will be modified and the take-of briefing will change a bit, but "crew workload," I wonder.

Without an FMS, the workload would be higher, programming the radios for departure and identifying, etc. for a last-minute clearance change, but again, the standard routing of a daily sched, there should be no surprises.

Try going to Moscow in crappy weather using metrics and bizarre barometric settings...and the controller speaks only 'controller English' with an accent like a mouth full of marbles. THAT is a workload, even if your a/c converts to metrics for you.

Perhaps someone would post their checklist, so we can see?

[Zero Trim]

Well, I'm fresh new to the forum thing (except for an adolescent look at Penthouse) so forgive me for being a newby.

What I'm not a newby on is the Pasco world and I can tell you that I am confident that contrary to some of the comments posted here, there isn't an evil plot to mess you up intentionally. There are many ex-flight instructors with over 1000 hrs. PIC (that shouldn't frost you... countless operators have the same dynamic these days) but there are still many of us who have 15 times that experience here in BC alone. Makes for diversity and a great crew.

If our crew is annoying you with poor airmanship... as already mentioned here, say something... politely! We're all in this together ( I sound like Red Green!).

For our 704 aircraft, "Clearance" is in the challenge and response format After Start C/L. Difficult to respond to if you don't have it and we don't want it missed so perhaps we need to change the SOPs slightly. For the most part putting the clearance on request and then immediately starting both engines works because FSS usually has it from center for us prior to that C/L and taxing and it flows well.

I am completely open to suggestions to pass along because I for one hate jumping the cue or annoying a fellow pilot unnescessarily.

Talk to me Goose!

Respectfully,

A Pasco Driver (ex float guy, Bandit, Shorts 360, B1900 -current Saab 340 Training Capt.)

[altiplano]

My take on it is SOP or not you can always defer something until a more suitable point... ie. "Clearance" - "On the taxi"

Whatever works though - But I would hate having to hold or delay departure because someone on the ground without engines started has picked up their clearance early...

[Four1oh]

at WJ we devised a supplementary checklist for any changes, especially runway and departure changes after engine start or during taxi. Maybe something like that will help you guys, zero trim.

[Zero Trim]

Great ideas guys. I'll get a copy of the WJ supplimentary C/L and see if we can incorporate it into our SOPs fleet wide. We have many pilots cross trained on two or three types and want commonality in SOPs whenever possible.
Thanks again both Four1oh and Altiplano!

[Four1oh]

....

[Dave T]

Deffinately suggest that is changed. Out of an FSS airport in our T/O briefing we'll usually brief our plan and what we are expecting. Once we get the actual clearance we will discuss it and change anything that we need to before take off.

I always take the stance that an IFR clearance out of an FSS airport is almost like a take off clearance. Once you have it no one else can land or take off, so I don't get it until I know I'll be able to take off without delay ie. doors closed, engines started.

[pinkus]

Simple answer to this one.

If the other aircraft has no engines running then ask the FSS guy/gal to mention to ATC that they are not even ready. I am certain that he will get you your clearance first.

Or...

Taxi out, block the hold line on the departure runway and wait. When said aircraft taxied out 10 minutes later, with his precious clearance, kindly with a hint of sarcasim tell him that you will move out of his way and that"We are so sorry to delay you today!"

It is well understood that you do not get a clearance from an MF until you are ready to taxi. Poor airmanship.

The other option is ATC giving out 10 minute cancel times to said aircraft. How can he accept an IFR with no engines running, pax in the terminal and expect to make his time...

I like that one the best.

On a side note, i have noticed one thing when two aircraft are jockeying for a clearance.

If you are slower, unpressurized or don't climb as high, you are delaying both of you in getting the clearance by racing to get yours first. If the slower/lower performance aircraft gets his first it causes slow step climbs for both and delayed clearance for the faster aircraft behind. If you allow the faster aircraft to get his first, you will recieve yours as soon as he clears the circuit, which can be about a one minute delay.

(I am not advocating that anyone has preferential treatment, but advocating everyone trying to enable more efficiency from a less than perfect system.)

edited for more rambling

[lilfssister]

I always take the stance that an IFR clearance out of an FSS airport is almost like a take off clearance. Once you have it no one else can land or take off, so I don't get it until I know I'll be able to take off without delay ie. doors closed, engines started.

Welllllllllllll...nobody except VFR aircraft...or IFR aircraft with a VFR departure authorised by ATC (provided you aren't in uncontrolled airspace at an FSS airport) can take off, and nobody...except IFR that have cancelled IFR, or VFR aircraft can land. So yeah, maybe you're right

[Dave T]

Welllllllllllll...nobody except VFR aircraft...or IFR aircraft with a VFR departure authorised by ATC (provided you aren't in uncontrolled airspace at an FSS airport) can take of, and nobody...except IFR that have cancelled IFR, or VFR aircraft can land. So yeah, maybe you're right

Hey now now, I was just using an example to get my point across. This thread is talking about IFR not VFR. Yes you can cancel to help out and take VFR departures but that isn't really the point of this thread.

[lilfssister]

Welllllllllllll...nobody except VFR aircraft...or IFR aircraft with a VFR departure authorised by ATC (provided you aren't in uncontrolled airspace at an FSS airport) can take of, and nobody...except IFR that have cancelled IFR, or VFR aircraft can land. So yeah, maybe you're right

Hey now now, I was just using an example to get my point across. This thread is talking about IFR not VFR. Yes you can cancel to help out and take VFR departures but that isn't really the point of this thread.

Yeah, but....

If I quoted you out of context, sorry.

However...what I quoted, taken as a statement by itself...it's incorrect?

(and damn you for quoting ME before I fixed my of/off typo )

[GilletteNorth]

I just want to emphasize something Lilfssister said

How fast I get it and relay it to you is not MY choice nor am I waiting for the "appropriate length of time".

A lot of times I call center and get a "I'll call you back." You can hear the the babble of voices in the background of controllers working so you know they are busy. In the meantime the pilot calling me has positioned on the threshold and doesn't know I'm waiting for a center call-back. I'll wait up to 3 minutes before calling again to give them a chance to clear some of their workload and to make sure they haven't forgotten the clearance request.