Man I have to let the cat out of the bag on this one. Piper is the same IP address as P180.
Way to try and glorify yourself. Carrier landings, hahahhaa that's wicked man! You should create another user and put in shuttle landings or shuttle reentry procedures next time.
Also as a side note. I've been there and done the James Bay area thing. All the strips up there are long and wide enough to turn around at the end on every day of the year. 5kts is not no wind at all, infact 5kts makes a big difference when you're taking off in the wrong direction, because the difference between 5kts on the tail and 5kts on the nose is 10kts. Surely you're not stupid enough to say that a 10kt difference on 1/2 of a 3500 foot gravel strip couldn't be a very big deal if things went south.
Awaiting your CAPLOCKED reply.
Airmanship
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Well, that's the story he tells the staff at the psychiatric facility, anyway.pipercub pilot wrote:P180 is a retired Canadian who attended the U.S navy academy, he has 1500 carrier landing in F4s and E2 Hawkeyes and flew in a war they called Vietnam.He has also time on the C130 in the artic and antartic on skies. And by the way he is still flying in Calgary.He can teach all of us a few lessons.
Tofo, not to pick on you tonight, but you appear to have changed your tone about this subject after reading the excellent posts by several of the extremely experienced posters here. Of course, this was posted to bring awareness to folks about the problems witnessed. When you have the runway available, why would anyone take only half of it, risking life and property? if i ever witnessed or heard of my crews doing that with my aircraft, there'd be lots of 'splaining to do, Lucy! a single such as the PC12 has no option if one fails, and for most light /medium twins, there will be many cases where the best course of action after an engine failure is to retard the other throttle and land straight ahead. Harder to do that if you've left runway behind your takeoff roll. How much more time does it take to taxi/back taxi to the end of a 5-6,000 ft strip, as opposed to an intersection departure that gives you 3,500ft? and when was the last time you did accelerate/stop and accelerate/go calculations at full gross, hot day, not much wind/or tailwind, and other than paved runway? bet a lot of aircraft performance charts dont cover all those items, so bingo -now you're a test pilot. Always ask yourself "what if" - guaranteed thats at minimum a mental question anyone who has been around a while asks themselves. Good luck studying for your atpl's.tofo wrote:come now, an empty T/O.
hell even the shiitiest 100 with -20's will still climb on one.
So I must ask why not with a T/O.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
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F/O Crunch
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lolendless wrote:Man I have to let the cat out of the bag on this one. Piper is the same IP address as P180.
Way to try and glorify yourself. Carrier landings, hahahhaa that's wicked man! You should create another user and put in shuttle landings or shuttle reentry procedures next time.
Also as a side note. I've been there and done the James Bay area thing. All the strips up there are long and wide enough to turn around at the end on every day of the year. 5kts is not no wind at all, infact 5kts makes a big difference when you're taking off in the wrong direction, because the difference between 5kts on the tail and 5kts on the nose is 10kts. Surely you're not stupid enough to say that a 10kt difference on 1/2 of a 3500 foot gravel strip couldn't be a very big deal if things went south.
Awaiting your CAPLOCKED reply.
Burn!!
Just an observation ... something that that I feel has been needed to be said for a long time.Doc wrote:As I said, I don't want to argue the value (or lack of) of intersection take offs. On this day, at this airport, seeing two professional pilots, in a commercial operation, depart from the middle of a 3500 foot strip, downwind, in anything other than a Twin Otter, left me wondering.....why?
There is a HUGE difference between a commercial pilot and a professional pilot.
As previously posted here, and not that I agree or disagree, flying is not the most difficult thing to do in the world, and pretty much anyone can eventually acquire a commercial license .. but a commercial pilot and a professional pilot aren't necessarily one and the same thing.
airmanship
I rarely post on this site because frankly the level of much of the discussion seems pretty base. But the "airmanship" topic is one I feel pretty strongly about. Airmanship in my opinion revolves around SA, common sense, safety and in some instances, courtesy. I am not perfect by any means and have made brain farts as much as the next guy. But I try to learn from my mistakes and don't regard any person bringing an airmanship point to light as a personal attack on my ability or character. Sadly this seems more the exception rather than the rule... most likely due to massive egos and arrogance which still persists in aviation no matter how many CRM courses, TC videos, "Mayday" shows on TV, or guest speakers at groundschools show there is no longer any place for "supreme commanders" and try to bring avaition into the 21st century... screaming and kicking. It really is pathetic. The bottom line is before you do something like run an aircraft up 40' in front of the others lined up on the ramp, park your plane so that it blocks the fueling station, dismiss listening to the ATIS because "ATC will tell you what you need to know"... (yeah on the ATIS dummy!) take a second to think about what you are doing and apply what you are supposed to have learned from groundschool, the AIM, your company ops manual and sops and all those other sources of good information, and from listening to other experienced pilots, sift out the crap and make an informed thoughtful decision. Nuff said.
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and have others wonder if you are a fool, than to open it and confirm thier suspicions."
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and have others wonder if you are a fool, than to open it and confirm thier suspicions."
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tofo
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1750' balanced field. I will read over my poh tonight but I'm pretty sure If you gan get airborn in 500' that you can meet balanced field in 1750'. and as long as you meet your balanced field who cares?Tofo, not to pick on you tonight, but you appear to have changed your tone about this subject after reading the excellent posts by several of the extremely experienced posters here. Of course, this was posted to bring awareness to folks about the problems witnessed. When you have the runway available, why would anyone take only half of it, risking life and property? if i ever witnessed or heard of my crews doing that with my aircraft, there'd be lots of 'splaining to do, Lucy! a single such as the PC12 has no option if one fails, and for most light /medium twins, there will be many cases where the best course of action after an engine failure is to retard the other throttle and land straight ahead. Harder to do that if you've left runway behind your takeoff roll. How much more time does it take to taxi/back taxi to the end of a 5-6,000 ft strip, as opposed to an intersection departure that gives you 3,500ft? and when was the last time you did accelerate/stop and accelerate/go calculations at full gross, hot day, not much wind/or tailwind, and other than paved runway? bet a lot of aircraft performance charts dont cover all those items, so bingo -now you're a test pilot. Always ask yourself "what if" - guaranteed thats at minimum a mental question anyone who has been around a while asks themselves. Good luck studying for your atpl's.
your mother/girlfriend/boss/passengers/insurance company etc., that's who, when the inevitible happens and they think "he could have made it if only he had used the whole strip" . Remember what your groundschool instructors from your PPL all the way up to (hopefully) company training tried to drill into you - those numbers are based on a NEW aircraft with NEW engines with a crew of TEST PILOTS who were FULLY EXPECTING a failure. big difference.
is this to say that no aircraft should ever take off a field that meets the operational requirements as listed in the POH/AFM? no, simply that discretion is the better part of valour, if you've got the option to stack the odds in your favour, why wouldn't you? again i ask, how long/much trouble is it to use the rest of the runway available? lots of excuses not to, but no sound reasons expressed so far.
is this to say that no aircraft should ever take off a field that meets the operational requirements as listed in the POH/AFM? no, simply that discretion is the better part of valour, if you've got the option to stack the odds in your favour, why wouldn't you? again i ask, how long/much trouble is it to use the rest of the runway available? lots of excuses not to, but no sound reasons expressed so far.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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I fly on the coward principal, I always try and use every advantage I have to lessen the risk factor....
...therefore taking a few extra minutes to taxi to the end of the runway may someday allow me to get shot by some womans husband for poaching on his turf when I'm 90 years old.
...therefore taking a few extra minutes to taxi to the end of the runway may someday allow me to get shot by some womans husband for poaching on his turf when I'm 90 years old.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
If we gave everyone the benefit of the doubt this site would bore you to tears.
If you can't turn an a/c around without prop damage you shouldn't be there. Either learn how to do it or refuse the gravel.
If you can't operate on gravel without damage and you have to go in there, buy a drum of Raybinder and put it on the turn-arounds. Cheaper than props.
If your engine coughs on takeoff and you have to put it in straight ahead, would you rather it happen on the rest of the runway or the lake/stumps/trees? Even the example of the 172, which, due to it being a 'junior' aircraft, might it be operated by a driver who is more likely to try and turn back with a dead engine???
If you doorknobs haven't yet figured out that Doc is trying to help out and maybe save some of your miserable superior hides, you are probably too stupid to be flying.
If you can't turn an a/c around without prop damage you shouldn't be there. Either learn how to do it or refuse the gravel.
If you can't operate on gravel without damage and you have to go in there, buy a drum of Raybinder and put it on the turn-arounds. Cheaper than props.
If your engine coughs on takeoff and you have to put it in straight ahead, would you rather it happen on the rest of the runway or the lake/stumps/trees? Even the example of the 172, which, due to it being a 'junior' aircraft, might it be operated by a driver who is more likely to try and turn back with a dead engine???
If you doorknobs haven't yet figured out that Doc is trying to help out and maybe save some of your miserable superior hides, you are probably too stupid to be flying.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Cat Driver
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How come no one has commented on how quick that pilot had to come up on power to get off a gravel strip in 1750 feet?If you can't turn an a/c around without prop damage you shouldn't be there. Either learn how to do it or refuse the gravel.
That is a sure fire method of getting prop damage.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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canpilot
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Doc,
EXACTLY! I see this type of crap time and time again at FTU's. Eg. not cleaning the windshield, not getting ATIS, not topping up the oil, not re-checking fuel grade after getting fueled, not completing pre-takeoff checks, letting excess/ spilled oil drip all over the fuselage/ cow, ..just starting up and blasting off!! etc..
It amazing how far people are willing to go to save a minute! Either that, not how much people don't give two shits ! As someone already said..there's a big difference between a commerical pilot and a PROFESSIONAL PILOT!
As someone attempting to come up the ladder I'm going to try and strive to be more professional and acheieve a higher level of safety for each flight. A friend of mine once told me: "Never go out thinking something won't happen to you..go out thinking something will..and ask yourself... Am I prepared" ???
EXACTLY! I see this type of crap time and time again at FTU's. Eg. not cleaning the windshield, not getting ATIS, not topping up the oil, not re-checking fuel grade after getting fueled, not completing pre-takeoff checks, letting excess/ spilled oil drip all over the fuselage/ cow, ..just starting up and blasting off!! etc..
It amazing how far people are willing to go to save a minute! Either that, not how much people don't give two shits ! As someone already said..there's a big difference between a commerical pilot and a PROFESSIONAL PILOT!
As someone attempting to come up the ladder I'm going to try and strive to be more professional and acheieve a higher level of safety for each flight. A friend of mine once told me: "Never go out thinking something won't happen to you..go out thinking something will..and ask yourself... Am I prepared" ???
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2milefinal
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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That tells you everything you need to know about them.......damage the prop on the turn around...oh boy.
...
...I never cease to be amazed at some of the talent that is out there flying expensive equipment...
Reminds me of watching a crew in a Navajo in Alberta one day sitting in parking erea of a gravel strip doing a run up...flight school style where they stayed at high RPM forever doing what ever secret things these idiots had been taught to do...
...I can still hear the ping, ping, bang, ping of the gravel being sucked up into the props....unbelievable...simply fu.king unbelievable.
I'm betting the prop damage was more than those two made in a season.
God help aviation......
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
tofo
we'll give you points for letting us know that you've picked [/u]and will incorporate into your (and whatever crews you're responsible for) daily flying[/u] airmanship/safety lessons, not for knowing how to use a chart that we all should be able to use before the company sends us for our check ride.
we'll give you points for letting us know that you've picked [/u]and will incorporate into your (and whatever crews you're responsible for) daily flying[/u] airmanship/safety lessons, not for knowing how to use a chart that we all should be able to use before the company sends us for our check ride.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
This whole topic is about a PC-12. Balanced field does not exist for a single engine aircraft. In a single you want lots of runway.1750' balanced field. I will read over my poh tonight but I'm pretty sure If you gan get airborn in 500' that you can meet balanced field in 1750'. and as long as you meet your balanced field who cares?
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tofo
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somebody mentioned an empty twin otter. Some how I'm an idiot for thinking that a plane with two engines that regularly operates off 800' eskers safely, is safe flying off 1750' gravel strip (the twin otter is how balanced field entered into the conversation).
I suppose 1750' is not that far to back track but I get the distinct feeling that the people who are arguing for the back track on that machine are not the same people who fly that machine (unless were talking about Maldivians, They'd back track to sri lanka to fly to the next atoll if they could)
I suppose 1750' is not that far to back track but I get the distinct feeling that the people who are arguing for the back track on that machine are not the same people who fly that machine (unless were talking about Maldivians, They'd back track to sri lanka to fly to the next atoll if they could)
Cat Driver wrote...."doing whatever secret things these idiots had been taught to do." ROTFLMFAO!!!!! Truer words were NEVER spoken!!
Methinks this is half the problem.....flight schools who have their students dress like "junior" AIRLINE CAPTAINS, but don't know DICK about airmanship!
Methinks this is half the problem.....flight schools who have their students dress like "junior" AIRLINE CAPTAINS, but don't know DICK about airmanship!
