Students and Radiospeak

[Airtids]

One thing that has been mentioned here, but maybe not fully appreciated, is that most student pilots are SCARED AS HELL of using the radio!! Mainly for the same reason that many folks get nervous sweats when they even think about public speaking. The key is to make them relax, and teach RADIO in a manner that makes them THINK, not PARROT.
Here's how I teach it: A radio call is made up of 4 items- 1)Who are you talking to? 2) Who are you (A/C type and Ident)? 3) Where are you (position and altitude)? 4)What do you want? Essentially, it is that simple. I let them know that on the INITIAL call up, or ADDRESS, we only use 1) and 2) and the frequency we are calling on, then continue with 3) and 4) after the station gets back to you. Additionally, your ident is to include the Golf (or Foxtrot as the case may be) which may be dropped from subsequent transmissions IF initiated by the station (FSS, TWR, GND, etc.).
I let them know that words are the currency of radio communication, and if you can convey your message effectively by using one less word, then it is up to you to do it.
This is the big picture. The finer details, especially the contents of item 4) are learned as they go.

[hi maint]

lilfssister,
like most other lessons, any preparation on the ground goes out the window. I do my best to coach students at first when they are having problems, or something they didn't expect over the radio comes up. But sometimes, they are just too fast to push the PTT button, and they say something I know is wrong, or useless to you guys. On the inside, I slap my head bang head everytime this happens, but there's nothing I can do at that point..

WHAAATT? but there's nothing I can do at that point..

...you can easily cut in and correct the student's error...If a student F's up ,you could and SHOULD cut in and correct the mistake asap.

[Right Seat Captain]

Hi-maint,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The kind of mistakes I was refering to are not those related to safety, ie wrong position, accept a clearance that isn't safe...

I was refering to improper radio technique. Unfortunately, with the way the push to talk buttons work in most aircraft, you cannot have someone 'cut-in'. The first to press the PTT button is the one that transmits, until they are finished. It wouldn't be very good to jump in or panic everytime a student screws up. People tend to learn best from their own mistakes, rather than someone fixing the problem for them. It's best that they make these mistakes with an instructor, someone who knows where the line of safety is drawn.

[ahramin]

Oh don't be so confounded noble RSC. Ignorant unwashed loud-mouths need to be stomped on. No point taking the cultured approach and showing a good example, nekulturney mouth breathers like hi-maint are not capable of learning from so subtle a lesson.

It is a much bigger kindness to tell them to take their moronic lack of knowledge, fold it until it is all sharp corners, and shove it up their oubliette. It probably will not work, but it just might make them think (if possible).

[hi maint]

Hi-maint,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The kind of mistakes I was refering to are not those related to safety, ie wrong position, accept a clearance that isn't safe...

I was refering to improper radio technique. Unfortunately, with the way the push to talk buttons work in most aircraft, you cannot have someone 'cut-in'. The first to press the PTT button is the one that transmits, until they are finished. It wouldn't be very good to jump in or panic everytime a student screws up. People tend to learn best from their own mistakes, rather than someone fixing the problem for them. It's best that they make these mistakes with an instructor, someone who knows where the line of safety is drawn.

I'll grant you the latitude that your student has a proverbial death grip on the PTT buton. IMHO this is where ground training comes in, the student should be on notice that he must "allow" the instructor to "swat" him off the radio from time to time. It is up to the instructor to instruct the student ...it is NOT up to the ATC or FSS to berate or straighten out the student pilot, don't forget that there are others who depend and rely on accurate calls, even if WE don't think its a safety issue , to others up there, it just may well be.
As you are aware, training should be given before the student is flying, no matter how apt the student pilot appears, he shouldn't be on his own on a radio unless he possesses the skills do so.
In other words, if he is f'ing up on the radio....hit the books again with him on the ground. The trouble is, most instructors don't make the big dough that way..in many cases...isn't that the REAL issue?

[hi maint]

ahramin...sorry, it sounds like you haven't kicked the crack habit yet.

[Right Seat Captain]

One thing you learn when you become an instructor, is that no matter how well a student may know something on ehte ground, when they are flying, their mind is elsewhere. There are many sidtractions, and they are concentrating on many things at the same time. If one could get to perfect on the ground only, what would be the point of flying each lesson? Quite frankly, the confusion caused by two people talking on the radio for the same plane is not worth the hazard. I like to make it clear at what point who is responsible for the radio calls, and unless safety is compromised, which I think I've been trained enough to determine, I'm not going to cut off the student and take over the radio.

As it was mentioned, students are afraid to speak on the radio, often because they are afraid of making a mistake. Well the reality is, if you screw up slightly on the radio, hey it's not the end of the world...even the pros make mistakes. So if you freak out and swat at them everytime they make a radio mistake, they'll be even more scared to contact ATC.

[hi maint]

Right Seat Cp'n
Point taken. I'm just a student so I have rather a limited point of view. I suppose you must go thru living hell with some students...at any rate, thanks for some good insight from the other side of things.

[ahramin]

That's better. Not trying to break anyone, just encourage a little humility.

[Miss Mae]

Overheard Radio Funny

In CYXU controllers will often ask pilots to report the dam (At Fanshawe Lake), I overheard ATC ask a student pilot to "report the dam" joining downwind...about 5 minutes later the student came back on after having flown way past his reporting point...."London Tower ***** is now abeam the numbers...sorry I forgot my dam call". ATC was falling off their seats, and the poor student couldn't figure out what was so funny.

[Shiny Side Up]

Ideally each student should be talking on the radio like their instructor. Now given if we all go back far enough there theoretically should be very little deviation in what we say. Now I've tried everything to curb these creative tendancies of pilots, but it never seems to work.
!

Possibly there could be a missing link here. Would you know or have access to a script for the various standard radio call procedures that a student would encounter and could therefore refer to? This could help your "students" immensely and unlock the mystery-speak of the radio.

There is no "script" and its funny you ask because a lot of students try to memorize every type of particular radio call, which unless you're some kind of brainiac is near impossible given the variety of situations a pilot might find themselves in, but I do harp on two things: firstly your radio calls should always include who you're calling and who you are - In that order and without fail - sound simple enough? Next should be where you're at and what you're doing If necessary depending on who you're talking to. The second rule is Keep It Simple Stupid. Otherwise known as K.I.S.S (not to be confused with the band. In other words be precise and to the point. Mystery solved?

Maybe something he could practice on the ground a little before he flys? The standard training manuals are ambiguous to say the least. I would think if someone wrote out or referred the student to a standard acceptable practice ( and sometimes not so standard) for the various radio calls, at least one could have a benchmark to study from, memorize or at least to refer to when "freeze up" occurs.

You're right in the fact that the standard training manual is inadequate. But on the other hand its one of those things you only learn by doing. I do, we do, you do. In other words standard practice should be the student listening to his instructor do radio calls on the first few flights, then the instructor guiding the student through them, then finally the student doing all the radio work and the intructor critiquing. And I've just given you the "benchmark" to study above. The keys to good radiowork isn't rote memorization, its listening and learning. Pay attention when your instructor is on the radio, and I usually will critique a particularly bad radio call we hear so the student knows what not to do (It never stops them, but you gotta keep trying) Lastly, I quiz them on what someone else is saying on the radio. I'll say it again: PAY ATTENTION.

Sometimes, with all the things a student has to concentrate on, "so-called radiospeak" may well be on the same level as stage fright.
"Oh m'god everyone can hear me and I don't want to sound like a f-up!...then someone's ( like S-side-up) gonna post something shitty about me on the internet!!!"

No offense but if worrying about what people are going to say about you on the internet is what you're worrying about while you're flying: GROW UP! This is stuff I expect from my shy teenage students who are at an awkward age, but from grown adults?! I mean if you're afraid someone might hear you say something stupid on the radio and that's what really terrifies you put it in context: If you don't do it right you might get yourself killed. Its like that Seinfeld joke. Apparently speaking in public is people's number one fear - death is number two. Death is number two?! This means to the average person they'd rather crash the airplane than maybe make a mistake on the radio. If you screw up, Who cares? Like shit...It happens. Do it right the next time!

Just parroting the calls from the instructor doesn't always ring any bells unless done over and over again ..this takes up valuable lesson time, if the student is prepared with a "script" (so to speak) he could ensure that he is smooth, clear and concise in his calls.

Of course parroting the instructor doesn't work, but unlike a parrot you as a human being have the larger brain to use to ask the instructor why he is saying what has been said so you can extrapolate how to apply this piece of informantion to another parallel problem. A "script" doesn't work because what happens if something doesn't go according to the "script" you've studied? Then our student is left not knowing what to say again. The best example I can give is this: most students lean a "script" on what to say in a position report. But if someone actually replies to it they're left hanging again. Why? Because the amount of variable that might be included in the reply defy any scripted reply, you better be paying attention to what they say. How to reply is generally pretty simple if you paid attention to the question.

Just fodder for you...and yer students to make them a little more sure of themselves .
. this might also relieve us a little of your bloody complaining

Let me get this straight. You're confident as a student that you can fly the airplane, but your not confident that you can talk on its radio? It doesn't make a lot of sense, but the fact that you're a student reveals one thing that your instructor is having a hard time with you: RTFQ If you might have noticed I didn't start this thread asking why students have a hard time talking on the radio, I asked about where they get all sorts of bizzare lingo or methods. Since I have one here, I'll ask again Where do you come up with it?

[hi maint]

SS Up
I pm'd you re your last post, you seem kind of crabby.

[bb lint]

HM
Welcome to the wonderful world of flight instruction
Argue

[Hun IN the SUN]

You should hear the southern boys talk on the radio in Texas/louisana

[. ._]

When I was worried about screwing up on the radio when I started, I visited the tower. A controller there said, "Say whatever the @#$! you want, don't worry about it." So I do, but I keep it clean, and as brief as I can if there is other traffic.

Other than that, just let me know if you're around, and if I have to look out for ya.

-istp

[bb lint]

Hey Hi
This is not probably the best forum to get much help for a student. PM me and I can recommend some other forums and sites that are really focused on helping you , not, just a beak-off marathon....., attempting to intimidate a student. Just the very fact that you are inquisitive and are even here at all leads me to think that you are keen to learn. There is help out there, just ask

[Nordo]

Shiny-

Are you an Instructor?? I sincerly hope not. Your ego gets in the way of any teaching skills that you may have thought you had. This is alittle off topic here but aperantly (as bb lint pointed out) this forum is more for beakin'-off. So here I go....

SS-up wrote this;

No offense but if worrying about what people are going to say about you on the internet is what you're worrying about while you're flying: GROW UP! This is stuff I expect from my shy teenage students who are at an awkward age, but from grown adults?!

Try telling an Arachniphobe that being afraid of spiders is stupid. Or telling sombody suffering from agoraphobia, that you just came in from outside and its a beautiful day and they retarded.

Hi-Maint told you that she was scared of speaking on the raido because she feared the dreaded 'Fu@$-up,' and you told her to grow up!?!? Is this how you teach?? Tell your students that their fears are irrelivant and childish?? Over comming sombody's fear of somthing (radio-speak in this case) isnt going to happen by telling them they should grow up. You did get it right; #1 fear in north america..........public speaking. Maybe you should give that more thought when your teaching. You and I know that the tower isnt going to rip their head off (usualy the tower know the trainig A/C too) but to the student....

Sorry about the little speal...try and keep thing helpful, there are students on this forum who are trying to learn stuff.

[training wingz]

[quote] Shiny Side Up: RTFQ If you might have noticed I didn't start this thread asking why students have a hard time talking on the radio, I asked about where they get all sorts of bizzare lingo or methods. Since I have one here, I'll ask again Where do you come up with it?[/quote]

Hello,
I am too a student. I understand your posting bear the subject calld ++Student++s and radiospeak.
Please dont make us feel bad becuase we have questions,
I to have many of same conscerns as Himaint.
If you are unable to helps us please do not critcsize for us not speaking corectly.
and do not critcisize us for trying out honestly find out how to get it right.
Thankyou

[Murph]

answering the real question, i believe most students, as i was just a student pilot and so were many of my friends, pick up weird radio speak either from:
Hearing someone else say it and thinking it was cool and pilots like
Hearing something in a movie that was made to sound cool and what the general public would think as pilot like, or reading the same thing in a book
Thinking something up thats cool and pilot like

as for the question of why? well most instructors realy stress radio talk, as its very importants so, being that most people are afraid of speaking in public and everyone in a god knows how many mile radius with a radio or airband reciever is going to hear what you say, and we are told to keep our radio chatter quick and percise, which gets most people freaked out about saying the wrong thing and think they only have one shot at saying it, which makes them screw up more than they would normaly. Advice for instructors, don't correct your student, unless absolutely necisary as a matter of safety, but have them correct them selves, its less embarasing and gets rid of the fear of screwing things up, thinking they'll get jumped on by ATC if they correct themselves

[shitdisturber]

I used to teach my students to keep it as simple as possible and always used the same formula.
1 Who are you calling?
2 Who are you?
3 Where are you? (includes altitude)
4 What do you want to do?
5 How do you intend to do it?
Very basic but it takes care of most radio work; anything else you add on because you think it should be there is verbal diarrhea and you may be blocking something important out; ie "a/c G-XXX turn right to avoid hitting the heavy going right at you!" I'm with those who hate the phrase "conflicting traffic please advise." What am I going to do, keep the conflict a secret and risk a collision? If i'm in the vicinity, you can bet i'm going to be calling you to make sure we don't have a meeting of the minds! I may not give a damn about your neck but i'm pretty attached to mine! Say what you have to say and shut up; the life you save could be your own!

[bb lint]

SS Up
I pm'd you re. your last post,

HI M
Im dying to know what your response was to shiny. Do you have the kahonas (and/or wearing your flame retardent underpants) to post it here for us to read...or pm it to me
tks......................
BB

[hi maint]

HI M...
wearing your flame retardent underpants

bblint: thanks I could have used em !!!...check your pm

[bb lint]

hey Hi
LMAO
Now go learn how to be a good pilot.

[lilfssister]

Thanks Right Seat Captain!

On our side of the mic, we get "radiospeak" drilled into our heads from day one in school, lots of practice in the simulators there, and then get it checked during our on-the-job training. After getting through all that, we have it checked twice a year. (Newbies on our side are sometimes just as mic-shy, I guess.)

[Shiny Side Up]

It would seem we have a failure to communicate here;). When I was referring to RTFQ, I was referring to this:

Ok, this is one that continues to puzzle me. Where on earth do people continue to come up with bizarre and unwieldly practices on the radio? I mean this is one area where I'm stumped on how to get people to do things right. It doesn't help that it seems that ninety percent of the pilots out there don't do things right either? Ideally each student should be talking on the radio like their instructor. Now given if we all go back far enough there theoretically should be very little deviation in what we say. Now I've tried everything to curb these creative tendancies of pilots, but it never seems to work.

Now I appologise if the question wasn't obvious enough from the start, but here as a fellow instructor (Yes I am one, where else do you think I can draw on this well from? ) looking for advice on curbing students' creativeness in coming up with stuff on their own. Now with RTFQ I was referring to this, which some apparently didn't do. I just love when people comment about what I have said without reading it.

answering the real question, i believe most students, as i was just a student pilot and so were many of my friends, pick up weird radio speak either from:
Hearing someone else say it and thinking it was cool and pilots like
Hearing something in a movie that was made to sound cool and what the general public would think as pilot like, or reading the same thing in a book
Thinking something up thats cool and pilot like

as for the question of why? well most instructors realy stress radio talk, as its very importants so, being that most people are afraid of speaking in public and everyone in a god knows how many mile radius with a radio or airband reciever is going to hear what you say, and we are told to keep our radio chatter quick and percise, which gets most people freaked out about saying the wrong thing and think they only have one shot at saying it, which makes them screw up more than they would normaly. Advice for instructors, don't correct your student, unless absolutely necisary as a matter of safety, but have them correct them selves, its less embarasing and gets rid of the fear of screwing things up, thinking they'll get jumped on by ATC if they correct themselves

Now that's the sort of stuff I was looking for, not that there wasn't some good stories and advice given elsewhere, it simply didn't adress what I was looking for from the start.

Are you an Instructor?? I sincerly hope not. Your ego gets in the way of any teaching skills that you may have thought you had. This is alittle off topic here but aperantly (as bb lint pointed out) this forum is more for beakin'-off. So here I go....

Well I hate to bring your worst fears to life, but as our friend Hi Maint has revealed, its only here that the ego runs rampant, I mean as an instructor I still can't afford brand name "Kraft" dinner so that usually keeps the ego in check IRL. But I'm glad you got the point of most of my forum posts - a good place to beak off - Have at it! I mean we can't all afford to have a punching bag back in the instructors lounge can we?

Hi-Maint told you that she was scared of speaking on the raido because she feared the dreaded 'Fu@$-up,' and you told her to grow up!?!? Is this how you teach?? Tell your students that their fears are irrelivant and childish?? Over comming sombody's fear of somthing (radio-speak in this case) isnt going to happen by telling them they should grow up.

Once again you failed to read the entire comment. Are you afraid of talking on the radio? How much more are you afraid of death? I merely put the students in the right perspective. You can either stay closed mouth on the radio and possibly get killed when that King Air runs you over or you can speak up, maybe sound stupid, and save yourself. Remind the students that they have to be the "pilot in command" when the time comes. You either step into those shoes or you don't get to be one. End of story. Listen to what Shitdisurber had to say, he's very wise. But more to the point neither of these really adressed the main question I had which isn't encouraging students to talk, but discouraging the bad habits once they start.

Now given that this is the instruction forum I was hoping for some good advice that maybe other instructors might give on the subject. The point of the post was never to directly help out students, it was to help me help students.

And now, does anyone here really govern how their flight training goes by what maybe someone said online in some forum? And if you really placed that much stock in it that's where my GROW UP comment was really aimed at. I hope some instructor somewhere isn't having to say to their student "Now, now, the mean man online didn't really mean it, you'll be Ok"



Or is it site policy not to say anything that might hurt people's feelings somewhere? And if you don't like what I say, just ignore it! You won't hurt my feelings.