Canjet

[itismedd]

Hifly wrote "what small amount I know about the culture of the company is they treat everyone equally where they can."

The only thing in that sentence that is true is what small amount I know!!!, because the company does NOT treat everybody the same! And that goes all the way around from comparing to other companies to other groups within CJ.

[uwillpay]

... If it's so bad, then how is WJ, sunwing, RyanAir, and southwest making it work?

You're joking right? Sunwing aside, all of the other operators you name have economies of scale that aren't even on the same planet as CanJet. Southwest has over 490 737's. Ryanair has over 100, with another 125 on order. WestJet has...ummm...70?

CanJet is gonna have to fly some pretty lucrative contracts to pay for two leased NG's. Training and maintenance can only be spread across a "fleet" of two? Come on.

And to hifly...I didn't go to Jazz, but your taunting of those who did is pretty lame. Jazz will be around long after CanJet shuts down for the third or fourth or fifth time or whatever. Kind of renders pension comparisons moot.

As to the equality of treatment among employee groups, forget about the pilots for a moment. If you want a group that truly has received despicable treatment, look into the cabin crew department. Intimidation and cronyism rule the day and for what? A less than Tim Horton's wage. So yeah, don't try and sell us "the company treats everyone equally where they can". I guess they just couldn't find a way to treat FA's with the same respect they do employees working on a big fat military contract eh?!

[Four1oh]

... If it's so bad, then how is WJ, sunwing, RyanAir, and southwest making it work?

You're joking right? Sunwing aside, all of the other operators you name have economies of scale that aren't even on the same planet as CanJet. Southwest has over 490 737's. Ryanair has over 100, with another 125 on order. WestJet has...ummm...70?

CanJet is gonna have to fly some pretty lucrative contracts to pay for two leased NG's. Training and maintenance can only be spread across a "fleet" of two? Come on.

sooo, is that that maritimer defeatist attitude that Peter Mackay talked about? JUUUUUUST kidding! Why 'Sunwing Aside'? How did they make it work? How does anyone make it work? You have to start somewhere. I stand by my earlier post.

[flyin' fish]

Don't forget, the base is in Halifax, the majority of the work is done out Quebec, Montreal, Toronto and where ever they send us. It's stupid to start to talking about the economic situation in Atlantic Canada.
Can it work? Sure it can. The only question remains is how long Rowe plans on sticking around this time. That still makes a few of us very nervous.

[flyin' fish]

we should have a big party at Brewsters if this makes 1000 posts.

[Machiavelli]

It was Stephen Harper, not Peter Mackay.

From May 30th, 2002:

"Members of the Nova Scotia legislature voted unanimously Thursday in favor of a resolution condemning Stephen Harper, the leader of the Canadian Alliance.
The resolution was in response to Harper's comments that there is a "defeatist attitude" in Atlantic Canada.

"There is a dependence in the region that breeds a culture of defeatism," the Opposition leader said Wednesday following question period in the House."

[THEICEMAN]

now factor in down time due to maintenance and costs for maintenance, plus difference in costs of fuel, range, public image having newer airplanes... hmm what else? CASM RASM and FLASM?

Anyways, I don't think they're that far apart in the end. If it's so bad, then how is WJ, sunwing, RyanAir, and southwest making it work?

O.k....I don't know where to begin?? CASM (cost per average seat mile) is primary way of measuring profit margins on certain aircraft! It is the primary statistic used by mangement!! (Total CASM & Ral CASM) It's called aviation business! If you want, (Four1oh) I can teach you how it works???

-First OF ALL Soutwest still has a lot of 733 & 735s!! Will be there for a bit!

-Second.....Northwest still has 200 DC-9s that are wholly owned by them! Because the cost of ownership is minimal! You will have the economics of an A319 (despite high fuel prices & maintain cost) CASM is offseted since they own the aiplanes! That's how NW management looks at it...

-Third.......WestJet got NGs because they can't go on having a big fleet of 737 classics for the future +++ THE 737 CLASSICS CAN'T HAVE THOSE SATELLITLE TVS , which is part of their product!!!

-Fourth...having 20+ 737s Ng makes sense... 2 or 3 does not! Cost of ownership is too high! Your CASM will shoot up!

-Fifith...I now for a fact that C6 got the 735 for really cheap!

-Sixth...Image???? most people can't tell the diffrence between airplanes?? All you have to do is clean the airplane & they think it's brand new! Do you think the average persons knows what 737 looks like???


GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!![/b]

[Four1oh]

mmm-hmmm. You're absolutely right. Jetsgo got their airplanes for a steal, and look how well they're doing today! Making fistfuls of cash! I think it's YOU who needs to give their head a shake and get your facts straight.

[THEICEMAN]

Your wrong again! Jetsgo didn't just go under because of those owned foker 100s & leased MD-83s....
They went under becuase they got way too greedy & started challenging AC on the rapid air routes...
10cents yul-yyz....big mistake!!
I don't care if you have the lowest CASM in the industry.....their tactics was the primary cause of the crash!

Remember that at the beginning, Jetsgo worked! They went from 9-23 planes (too fast!)
But when they started challenging AC on rapid air routes......they went bust..

AC OWNS THE RAPID AIR ROUTE YUL-YYZ>>>NOBODY CAN CHALLENGE THEM *with the exception of West Jet because of their netwrok...

Back when Candian was around...Ac loads were 92% on the rapid air...while Canadian was 70% at best..

Lebalnc just got greedy & stupid & crooked! Yul-Yyz is a big mistake!

[THEICEMAN]

Allegian is operating 29 MD-80s in the U.S & making $$$
y???
Because they have solid Tourist/economy routes with a low CASM

Jetsgo had stupid routes with a low CASM....selling YUL-YYZ tix @ 10cents is why they went down!

Jetsgo did make money on the Cuba flights though!!!!

[Four1oh]

Your wrong again! Jetsgo didn't just go under because of those owned foker 100s & leased MD-83s....
They went under becuase they got way too greedy & started challenging AC on the rapid air routes...
10cents yul-yyz....big mistake!!
I don't care if you have the lowest CASM in the industry.....their tactics was the primary cause of the crash!

Remember that at the beginning, Jetsgo worked! They went from 9-23 planes (too fast!)
But when they started challenging AC on rapid air routes......they went bust..

AC OWNS THE RAPID AIR ROUTE YUL-YYZ>>>NOBODY CAN CHALLENGE THEM *with the exception of West Jet because of their netwrok...

Back when Candian was around...Ac loads were 92% on the rapid air...while Canadian was 70% at best..

Lebalnc just got greedy & stupid & crooked! Yul-Yyz is a big mistake!

Yeah, and I saw your post on the WJ forum too. The only thing that kept them alive was the rapid expansion and selling 'future' tickets(at a loss too). Doesn't matter who they were up against, they were flying around in full airplanes, not making any money. It was set up to fail right off the start. And i think Leblanc was doing it intentionally. He should also be in jail too for what he did to his own employees and the industry.

[Four1oh]

Before I go on...just want to tell you all that I am 21 & have 125TT (& Building fast)...doin my Commercial, IFR & still in University. I fly almost every day tryin to get closer & closer to my dream.

I can admit that sometimes, I can be a bit cocky....but by no means do I believe I am ready to fly for an airline anytime soon..
Fancy College or not!

This guy "Daugherty" apparently flew gliders?? Does this count towards his total time?? If so, that would be a real joke!
I'm sure he is a nice guy, but who the heck is he to say. "But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable"
??????? Laughing Laughing
Why, because you went to some flight academy where you have probably done only 100TT a Year??
I don't blame him for taking the job. But he talks as if he is the Sydney Crosby for pilots....ya right!

I have done 100TT in the past 6 months & plan to do more 200TT+ in the next six months...how is this guy more well-rounded that I am....
or
as a matter of fact, better then the instructors @ my school! Some of which are extremely talented & would make 30X better pilots then he would!
Guys that I trust my life with, but are having a hard time getting on a King Air!

I would like to fly with this guy! No, actually...I wouldn't would not trust him @ the controls of even a 172! Not happenin...just would not let him!

Don't think I want to stay in Canada in the future. Plan to get some multi turbine with some Charter then off to Asia or something.....
THIS IS THE TRUE VOICE & OPINION OF MANY YOUNG PILOTS MY AGE & YOUNGER....THE FUTURE CANADIAN PILOTS

so I see from your comments from a previous thread, all I need to know about you. Thanks ICEMANCan I have your autograph too sir?

[THEICEMAN]

Well that's yet to be confirmed about Leblanc...but I do agree with you, he shold be in Jail!
Maybe he intended to make Jetsgo a success, I don't know???
But there was a point where Jetsgo did seem like it was gonna work (primarily @ the beginning)
Selling 10 cent tix on YUL-YYZ corridor is what really killed!

How low can u go?? How sad with that kind of response!
Y, cuz ou feel stupid when I keep stumpid u....ya I was wrong with the FlyGlobespan thing...
I love your rebutal! So what, I am not an experienced pilot!! Big whoop!
There are soo many people out there who understand the industry far better then you can imagine & they have 0TT!!

WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY AC JAZZ COMMENT??
Just because I decided to stick up for the older guys with 2000-3000 hours who are having a hard time getting in!! All those King Air, navajo, Float & Instructor guys who deserve it far better then some college kid!


Congrats...I am super impressed with you! What's your gonna be your response now.... more rhetoric??

[THEICEMAN]

Oh ya...btw...check out the westjet chat!!

To get back on track....

Go Canjet & all the best! It's seems like I.M.P is really finding a place for it in the industry!
Would be nice to see a 757 C6 doin YHZ-LGW, YHZ-GLA, YHZ-MAN, YHZ-TXL
with a Transat Holiday-Signature vacations contract???

Then send them south in Winter???

The 757 is an incredible aircraft (economics/range/payload/performance)! I think it would be a better fit then the 737NGS??
YYZ/YHZ/YUL-Mexico-Cuba-Dom Rep. etc...

I think ILFC has some availabel??
What do you guys think?

[Four1oh]

i think I wonder where you get your info. Thats what I wonder. Wow, i wish I knew everything again,like when i was 20.

[Stick-Shaker]

Even the most devote CanJet'rs realize that this will likely be another short lived venture. At best this will go on for a few more years provided that Sunquest/TransAt continue to play ball and provide them with passengers requiring lift to southern markets. Senior CJ captains even admit this is a day to day and season to season operation. Really, I have to admit I am somewhat suprized that this is still afloat. I would guess most of the credit goes to KW for his business savy efforts.

I can only assume that maintenance costs to operate 2-3 500's and 2 or so NG's would be outta this world. I have always been told that a min of 10 common type aircraft are required to to bring costs into line. Mixing it up like that doesn't seem fitting to such a cheap (low cost) business plan.

[CanadaEH]

I cant believe what I'm reading. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, THEICEMAN.

[THEICEMAN]

My idea was not to mix it up! That's 101, Mix & cost go up...
My idea was to go all 757...around 4-5 of them...

First of all...I've tryin to explain you guys this! C.A.S.M (COST PER AVARGE SEAT MILE) IS IMPORTANT!!


The 757 (given in 220 seat config.) has batter CASM then 735 & 73G..
It is super powerfull, economical, & reliable!
heck, if CanJet had the contract.....they can do Yul-CDG with cargo & full load! 737Ng...you can't!
Send them south in Winter...CanJet had a lot of trouble with YUL-Saint Marteen last year cuz 735 could barely make it!


(it's like the A380 concept.....freakin expensive...but has the lowest CASM in the industry! Making it potentially a very profitable aircraft to fly!)

That's what's soo good about the 757....you can do YYZ-MExico-YYZ & turn the aircraft around to go to Europe! 737NG, you can't!
& with 757 you can make $$$$ (given a 220 seating config)
That is why U.S carriers are soo reluctant to give them up!


"10 common type to bring down maintanance costs"?? According to whom?? Zoom is operating 4 763 & 1 752??? They are very well!
+
I.M.P does their own maintanance...not that bad! (given they have the infrastructure to handle 757)

I think ILFC has a couple availabel...with right timing, you can get them for cheap!

[CanadaEH]

CASM is short for cost per AVAILABLE seat mile, not cost per average seat mile. It's a measurement made up of many different things including employee salaries, maintenance costs, aircraft ownership/purchase/lease costs, marketing, average stage length (otherwise known as ASL), aircraft utilization, airport/office rent, vehicle/equipment, etc, etc.

You might think that 757's are dirt cheap, and you're probably right. That's cause they're maintenance pigs. Your low ownership/lease costs are dwarfed by high, expensive aircraft maintenance.

"10 common type to bring down maintanance costs"?? According to whom?? Zoom is operating 4 763 & 1 752??? They are very well!

"Very well"? Says who? They do not report financial results. It's a fact that the more aircraft you have, the lower the costs. Take a look at recent results from AC; costs went up because they were adding 777's - a new type of aircraft. Those costs will drop once they get rid of another (340) but the more aircraft you have, the more you can spread out your costs. That's why having the same type of aircraft in your fleet is great at keeping costs low.

[THEICEMAN]

ooops i meant to say for CASM (cost availabel seat mile....before)...

& you don't think the 757 can't produce extra revenue to offset maintanace cost in long run?? Increase in RASM??....revenue per availabel seat mile
YHZ-LHR...I seen the financial results for AC on this route...the yields are incredible...even YYT-LHR
When I was @ C6...there was talk about this!

With 220 seats.....the CASM on a 757 would equate to a 737NG...
Proof...well
Was talking to somebody @ Northwest management last Month, & I asked "y, are there still DC-9s" THE ULTIMATE MAINTANANCE PIG!!
He said...
"the Dc-9 in cost equate to our A320 because we own the airplanes & we don't have to pay the lease on them! Most of our a320 cost a mint to own! Keeping the Dc-9s for now make sense, despite the gas guzzling."

As soon as they would get rid 735...implement 757....
how much more potential revenue can you make with a 757??
It would offset the maintanance for sure.....it's the ultimate charter aircraft!

Yes I do know about the increase in cost for AC with the 773....same with every airline when the implement new aircraft into the fleet....
Most aircraft, when they leave the factory...90% of the time, there is something wrong with it!
On C-FITL there were many problems with the APU & Hydraulic brakes....thus contributing to cost (repairs, replacaments, hotel for passnegers when that got stuck in LHR, etc...)

Your right ZOOm does not need to report...
But
They keep growing...& I highly doubt that they are a Jetsgo kind of operations..
They are attacking the routes that make $$$$$
Not challenging AC on the rapid air routes!

[Stick-Shaker]

ICEMAN:

"The 10 aircraft/maintenance cost" comment was not something I woke up screaming in the middle of the night. The director of CJ maintenance was fond of that number. Take your doubts up with him. But despite my opinion, I just heard that 2 800's are done deal according to one CJ checker.

And ICE, try laying off TOP GUN for a while.

[invertedattitude]

Jesus I thought I had met many un-educated trolls before... geez.


When you go flying do you make sure your passengers refer to you as Captain?

Someday you'll realize that 125TT or 200TT or 600TT is nothing, you're still not a seasoned pilot.

I hold my CPL at 350+TT at the moment, and I consider myself an "Amateur pilot"


What proves your lack of flying skill/knowledge is your dejection of glider pilots, if you really understood flying, aviation safety you'd know how important glider training really is.

[flyin' fish]

Operating NG's out YHZ would save alot of fuel and headaches, especially to PUJ/POP. Flying the classics along the shoreline is a waste of time and fuel these days.
There's fuel savings and more seats available for these routes. Also, I hear a deal has been struck to hand over the classics to the leasor in exchange for the NG's. Sounds like another, relatively, cheap deal.

[Rotten Apple #1]

we should have a big party at Brewsters if this makes 1000 posts.

Almost choked on my coffee! Too effin' funny...HAHAHAHA...

[CanadaEH]

Sounds like another, relatively, cheap deal.

I wonder how much those leases for NG's cost? WS has been saying there aren't any available which would lead me to believe they're either too expensive to lease or configured differently from our fleet.