Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.

[canpilot]

If I am included in the " you guys" group. I have 440TT and yes, I would.

[Buschpielot]

Some of the old timers will have to help me out with this one. Wasn't there a brief blip in the 70's or 80's when this sort of thing happened? A neighbor's brother was plucked out of Selkirk College by Canadian Pacific and put right seat on the 737. Took 17 years to go Captain if I recall the story correctly - of course memory can be a wonderfully inaccurate thing!

[Liger]

I believe that I too have been included in the "you guys" group. So here we go...

You guys never said anything that you wish you hadn't afterward when you were young?

I still do!

You guys were as smart when you were young as you are today?

I was probably smarter back then...

You guys weren't just a little proud when you passed your commercial / IFR?

Not Really. It was just another baby step.

You guys would have turned down a job offer with Jazz at 300 hours because of your high morals and ethics?

JAZZ didn't even exist back then.

You guys knew everything there was to know about this industry when you were twenty-one?

I still don't know jack about this industry... but at least I have some flying experience to make up for my lack of personal skills, management skills and adaptability. Let's see... I stopped logging time years ago when I had well over 10,000 hours but I DID STAY AT A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT!

Your total knowledge of this kid comes from a newspaper article, so why don't you aviation gods leave him alone and focus your rapier wit and outrage at the people who made this happen in the first place.

A newspaper article and also from Small Penguin who has stated that he (or she) has flown with this kid. Small Penguin also stated that this kid "CAN BE COCKY AT TIMES".

To the KID:
I WISH YOU NO HARM KIDDO! JUST WATCH YOUR ATTITUDE. LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN FROM OTHER PILOTS, AND TRY TO KEEP A LOW PROFILE FROM NOW ON.

[Mitch Cronin]

You guys weren't just a little proud when you passed your commercial / IFR?

Liger wrote:
"Not Really. It was just another baby step."


My B.S. detector just went offscale!

[squawk 7600]

this is getting out of control.

[. ._]

I heard they're gonna be hiring people with a PPL and pay for the Multi/IFR training!

-istp

[Rockie]

You guys weren't just a little proud when you passed your commercial / IFR?

Liger wrote:
"Not Really. It was just another baby step."


My B.S. detector just went offscale!

So did mine. And it blew up at those guys saying they would have turned down the job at Jazz if they were in this kids shoes. They would have orgasmed first and then fallen on their knees thanking god.

[Hedley]

If you want to be a heavy equipment operator, why not consider the alternatives?

1) long haul trucker
2) crane operator
3) nuclear reactor stationary engineer
4) bus driver

Lots of the above have very nice uniforms, too.

[Four1oh]

I'm sure any of us would have jumped at the opportunity had we been in the same situation, but looking back, at least for me, it would have been a major mistake if I had done that. The path I did take taught me more, and made me a better pilot.

[Hedley]

Here's what happens when you have young, inexperienced pilots flying:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 56137.html

[Rockie]

Here's what happens when you have young, inexperienced pilots flying:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 56137.html

Nothing sufficient training wouldn't have prevented.

[Dark Helmet]

Rockie. What does this have to do with anything?

You guys never said anything that you wish you hadn't afterward when you were young?

To a few people a few times . Certainly not to the media.

You guys were as smart when you were young as you are today?

Of course not, thats the whole point. Why do you think Jazz is hiring them, and they are proving that point for us.

You guys weren't just a little proud when you passed your commercial / IFR?

Of course I was, and when I graduated college. But I wasn't thinking I could be a 737 Captain bercause of it.

You guys would have turned down a job offer with Jazz at 300 hours because of your high morals and ethics?

If ANO, AON, CRA, ABC, Etc....offered me a job. Yeah I probably would. Today I glad that was not presented to me. Personally I do not envy these college grads either.

You guys knew everything there was to know about this industry when you were twenty-one?

No, Read my answer to your second question.

Your total knowledge of this kid comes from a newspaper article, so why don't you aviation gods leave him alone and focus your rapier wit and outrage at the people who made this happen in the first place.

I have seen that kind of attitude before.....several times. Not that I am concerned, it will catch up to them eventually, just like it did to all of us. over and over.

[Dark Helmet]

Here's what happens when you have young, inexperienced pilots flying:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 56137.html

Nothing sufficient training wouldn't have prevented.

and proper. Key word in that sentence.

[sofar]

i didn't want tell this story but seeing all these post.i must put it. There is a guy working in my cie..giving some theory class only.and he's just starting is last year from a aviation college. Some of his friends have been accepted to Jazz and he was telling me...Jazz was taking fresh graduated from college because they are more "sharp" than a 2000 or 5000 hours guy. Because they just finished there training..there are still more sharp to do sim and practice emergencies.. You can be sure i was more than happy to remind him than a 2000 hours or more pilot had already a few PPC passed already a initial training of cie....he was really convinced that jazz was taking the new graduated only because they were more able to do a training than a more experience pilot who had finish is training since a while...wow wow wow..
we had a chance to talk after that to explain each other..but as this experience shows us...its the thinking and attitude of theses guys that will really have to change a lot if they want to be accepted ...
what do you guys think?!?

[Rockie]

Here's what happens when you have young, inexperienced pilots flying:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 56137.html

Nothing sufficient training wouldn't have prevented.

and proper. Key word in that sentence.

Agreed

I am only too aware of how some people's egos outrun their abilities and experience. But what sickened me about this thread was the ganging up on some young kid who you don't even know, and is probably quite a bit like all of us were at his age. Attempting to post his picture was the last straw. Enough is enough.

[Liger]

You guys weren't just a little proud when you passed your commercial / IFR?

Liger wrote:
"Not Really. It was just another baby step."


My B.S. detector just went offscale!

So did mine. And it blew up at those guys saying they would have turned down the job at Jazz if they were in this kids shoes. They would have orgasmed first and then fallen on their knees thanking god.

OK Mitch and Rockie,

Maybe I was a LITTLE proud when I got my Commercial/Multi-IFR, but I WAS NEVER COCKY!!! If you don't want to call it a baby step, let's call it a toddler's step. A fresh Commercial/Multi IFR is nothing more than a licence to LEARN. It's a permit to get out there and make mistakes, scare yourself, make bad judgements/decisions that hopefully will not cost you your life (or anybody else's) and gain experience. It's all part of the learning process. I knew that even before I got my Commercial/IFR.

The few college kids that will bypass this learning process are going to miss out on too much. Are they bad pilots? I don't think so. Will they ever be able to make the right choice in a critical moment without looking towards someone for guidance/input? Only time will tell. But I really don't think so.

How will they ever get their ATPLs? By renting C150s at flying schools to build PIC time? That really isn't quality time! It will come back to bite them when they find out that even after 20 years at Jazz they will never be able to upgrade to the left seat because they don't have any PIC time. But that will be their problem when the time comes. They will be eternal FOs working for peanuts because they accept to work for a small pay (as Small Penguin stated).

My problem is not with the kid accepting the job that was offered to him. My problem is with his attitude (and like I said before about Small Penguin) you guys aren't helping his case. My problem is also with Jazz which is going ahead with this decision to hire inexperienced pilots who will drive down the proffession, the salaries and working conditions for every pilot including themselves in the long run!

But we can't blame Jazz... they are making a business decision. Here's the reality: Jazz is not in the business of transporting passengers... Jazz is in the business of making money for ACE and the share holders. By hiring the college students they will be saving lots of money because the college students will cost them very little (in salaries), and they won't be able to leave Jazz for any other airline! This reduces attrition and new hiring which drives down the cost of new hire training and the pilot's salaries.

Now an advice to the college grads taking place in this experiment: keep a VERY low profile. You guys are not God's gift to aviation! Even the most senior captains, the most experienced ones at ANY airline aren't God's gift to aviation. Don't get cocky, and try to learn from all around you, while keeping a low profile! Don't talk to the media! Best of Luck!

[Rockie]

Liger wrote:
"Not Really. It was just another baby step."


My B.S. detector just went offscale!

So did mine. And it blew up at those guys saying they would have turned down the job at Jazz if they were in this kids shoes. They would have orgasmed first and then fallen on their knees thanking god.

OK Mitch and Rockie,

Maybe I was a LITTLE proud when I got my Commercial/Multi-IFR, but I WAS NEVER COCKY!!! If you don't want to call it a baby step, let's call it a toddler's step. A fresh Commercial/Multi IFR is nothing more than a licence to LEARN. It's a permit to get out there and make mistakes, scare yourself, make bad judgements/decisions that hopefully will not cost you your life (or anybody else's) and gain experience. It's all part of the learning process. I knew that even before I got my Commercial/IFR.

The few college kids that will bypass this learning process are going to miss out on too much. Are they bad pilots? I don't think so. Will they ever be able to make the right choice in a critical moment without looking towards someone for guidance/input? Only time will tell. But I really don't think so.

How will they ever get their ATPLs? By renting C150s at flying schools to build PIC time? That really isn't quality time! It will come back to bite them when they find out that even after 20 years at Jazz they will never be able to upgrade to the left seat because they don't have any PIC time. But that will be their problem when the time comes. They will be eternal FOs working for peanuts because they accept to work for a small pay (as Small Penguin stated).

My problem is not with the kid accepting the job that was offered to him. My problem is with his attitude (and like I said before about Small Penguin) you guys aren't helping his case. My problem is also with Jazz which is going ahead with this decision to hire inexperienced pilots who will drive down the proffession, the salaries and working conditions for every pilot including themselves in the long run!

But we can't blame Jazz... they are making a business decision. Here's the reality: Jazz is not in the business of transporting passengers... Jazz is in the business of making money for ACE and the share holders. By hiring the college students they will be saving lots of money because the college students will cost them very little (in salaries), and they won't be able to leave Jazz for any other airline! This reduces attrition and new hiring which drives down the cost of new hire training and the pilot's salaries.

Now an advice to the college grads taking place in this experiment: keep a VERY low profile. You guys are not God's gift to aviation! Even the most senior captains, the most experienced ones at ANY airline aren't God's gift to aviation. Don't get cocky, and try to learn from all around you, while keeping a low profile! Don't talk to the media! Best of Luck!

EXCELLENT post. Advice to the new kid instead of slagging.

This is a new concept in Canada, so by the time these young pilots are ready for the left seat the licencing rules will have been changed to accomodate these types of pilots. The industry regulates Transport Canada, not the other way around.

[small penguin]

My problem is not with the kid accepting the job that was offered to him. My problem is with his attitude (and like I said before about Small Penguin) you guys aren't helping his case. My problem is also with Jazz which is going ahead with this decision to hire inexperienced pilots who will drive down the proffession, the salaries and working conditions for every pilot including themselves in the long run!

So a lot of the complaining has been because of a single sentence he said to the media... which I wouldnt have that way but at the same time he brings up a good point.

Young and new inexperienced pilots DO have disadvantages. We lack experience, we lack extra knowledge. But (at least in my opinion and in my eyes) we have several key advantages too. We are more observant. Watching people do a walk-around on the 172, the new guy doing his training doing his first few walk arounds (if done properly) always seems to be more vigilant and more careful than the guy with 100TT who graduated PPL a few months ago. I also like to think that (experience aside) we are sharper. Someone mentioned the young brain is like a sponge. It is. We do learn faster. All we ask is that you want to teach... and teach properly.

As for the aspect of COCKYNESS. I agree and I have said that in my opinion, Mr. Daughety is a little cocky. But ask yourself this question. What teenage/young adult male is not a little cocky? We all are or were. Not just aviators.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I do think that the college grads are probably sharper than 2000-4000 hour pilots...they have been trained to a very high standard, and that is the main reason they were hired...don't try to make yourselves feel better by saying it is some "cost cutting experiment"...I am proud of my classmates who were hired...lots of jealousy in the aviation community isn't there?

[Benwa]

You are right JohnnyBoy, it's only jealousy.

[Lurch]

My problem is not with the kid accepting the job that was offered to him. My problem is with his attitude (and like I said before about Small Penguin) you guys aren't helping his case. My problem is also with Jazz which is going ahead with this decision to hire inexperienced pilots who will drive down the proffession, the salaries and working conditions for every pilot including themselves in the long run!

So a lot of the complaining has been because of a single sentence he said to the media... which I wouldnt have that way but at the same time he brings up a good point.

Young and new inexperienced pilots DO have disadvantages. We lack experience, we lack extra knowledge. But (at least in my opinion and in my eyes) we have several key advantages too. We are more observant. Watching people do a walk-around on the 172, the new guy doing his training doing his first few walk arounds (if done properly) always seems to be more vigilant and more careful than the guy with 100TT who graduated PPL a few months ago. I also like to think that (experience aside) we are sharper. Someone mentioned the young brain is like a sponge. It is. We do learn faster. All we ask is that you want to teach... and teach properly.

As for the aspect of COCKYNESS. I agree and I have said that in my opinion, Mr. Daughety is a little cocky. But ask yourself this question. What teenage/young adult male is not a little cocky? We all are or were. Not just aviators.

Jazz is about to have the best walk arounds in the industry

Lurch

[Lurch]

I do think that the college grads are probably sharper than 2000-4000 hour pilots...they have been trained to a very high standard, and that is the main reason they were hired...don't try to make yourselves feel better by saying it is some "cost cutting experiment"...I am proud of my classmates who were hired...lots of jealousy in the aviation community isn't there?

So does this mean if they don't get on with Jazz, when your "Fellow" classmates reach 2000-4000 hours they will be dumber?

[Liger]

The industry regulates Transport Canada, not the other way around.

Sad, but true!

Cheers.

[Inverted2]

I do think that the college grads are probably sharper than 2000-4000 hour pilots...they have been trained to a very high standard, and that is the main reason they were hired...don't try to make yourselves feel better by saying it is some "cost cutting experiment"...I am proud of my classmates who were hired...lots of jealousy in the aviation community isn't there?

Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!

So is a 16 year old driver that just had drivers education but no real driving experience better than a 35 year old driver?

[Liger]

I do think that the college grads are probably sharper than 2000-4000 hour pilots...they have been trained to a very high standard, and that is the main reason they were hired...don't try to make yourselves feel better by saying it is some "cost cutting experiment"...I am proud of my classmates who were hired...lots of jealousy in the aviation community isn't there?

Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!

So is a 16 year old driver that just had drivers education but no real driving experience better than a 35 year old driver?

Insurance companies are jealous too! Because of jealousy they charge higher premiums for young and inexperienced drivers... Jealousy sucks!