Every day I spend flying around, I feel a little dumber. I really wish I could go back to flight school so I can sharpen my skills in a severely restricted environment.Lurch wrote:So does this mean if they don't get on with Jazz, when your "Fellow" classmates reach 2000-4000 hours they will be dumber?
Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
So Johnny, how many of these 'sharp' college grads are sitting next to you in the Citation 10?JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I do think that the college grads are probably sharper than 2000-4000 hour pilots...they have been trained to a very high standard, and that is the main reason they were hired...don't try to make yourselves feel better by saying it is some "cost cutting experiment"...I am proud of my classmates who were hired...lots of jealousy in the aviation community isn't there?
And when was the last time you checked out your alma mater? How do you respond to this:
posted by clunckdriver on page 4 of this thread…their decision to hire from Sault, a school whose reputation has taken a total nose dive in the last two years (students caught cheating, forging documents, flying program a shambles, TC withdrawing licences due to training irregularities), the list goes on…
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Dark Helmet
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Sure. It looks good in theory and in paper. Just like the 2 freeze on Jazz pilots from going to AC. However, it has not worked very well for them in reality. No offence but I think it is naive to believe that this will solve Jazz crewing requirements.Liger wrote:OK Mitch and Rockie,Rockie wrote:So did mine. And it blew up at those guys saying they would have turned down the job at Jazz if they were in this kids shoes. They would have orgasmed first and then fallen on their knees thanking god.Mitch Cronin wrote: Liger wrote:
"Not Really. It was just another baby step."
My B.S. detector just went offscale!
Maybe I was a LITTLE proud when I got my Commercial/Multi-IFR, but I WAS NEVER COCKY!!! If you don't want to call it a baby step, let's call it a toddler's step. A fresh Commercial/Multi IFR is nothing more than a licence to LEARN. It's a permit to get out there and make mistakes, scare yourself, make bad judgements/decisions that hopefully will not cost you your life (or anybody else's) and gain experience. It's all part of the learning process. I knew that even before I got my Commercial/IFR.
The few college kids that will bypass this learning process are going to miss out on too much. Are they bad pilots? I don't think so. Will they ever be able to make the right choice in a critical moment without looking towards someone for guidance/input? Only time will tell. But I really don't think so.
How will they ever get their ATPLs? By renting C150s at flying schools to build PIC time? That really isn't quality time! It will come back to bite them when they find out that even after 20 years at Jazz they will never be able to upgrade to the left seat because they don't have any PIC time. But that will be their problem when the time comes. They will be eternal FOs working for peanuts because they accept to work for a small pay (as Small Penguin stated).
My problem is not with the kid accepting the job that was offered to him. My problem is with his attitude (and like I said before about Small Penguin) you guys aren't helping his case. My problem is also with Jazz which is going ahead with this decision to hire inexperienced pilots who will drive down the proffession, the salaries and working conditions for every pilot including themselves in the long run!
But we can't blame Jazz... they are making a business decision. Here's the reality: Jazz is not in the business of transporting passengers... Jazz is in the business of making money for ACE and the share holders. By hiring the college students they will be saving lots of money because the college students will cost them very little (in salaries), and they won't be able to leave Jazz for any other airline! This reduces attrition and new hiring which drives down the cost of new hire training and the pilot's salaries.
Now an advice to the college grads taking place in this experiment: keep a VERY low profile. You guys are not God's gift to aviation! Even the most senior captains, the most experienced ones at ANY airline aren't God's gift to aviation. Don't get cocky, and try to learn from all around you, while keeping a low profile! Don't talk to the media! Best of Luck!
Nevertheless, Good Points.
There I was, flying into busy Atlanta, with its 4 parallels.
My 250 hour whizz kid sitting next to me had been fine throughout the oceanic crossing, and I was actually relaxed, He had shown good common sense, a good attitude, good knowledge about aircraft systems, and a willingness to learn.
Descending through 8000 ft, ATC gives us a runway change. The weather was severe clear, blue sky, unlimited vis, and we could see the airport and all its runways, taxiways, buildings...
The kid stops thinking, puts his head down and starts reprogramming the FMS for the new runway. never in my career have I ever seen someone put his head down under 10000 feet near an airport that has local traffic. If that is the quality of new grads, and yes this kid was from a college, KEEP THEM. I might have slapped his hand; I can not remember exactly, but my blood pressure went up.
Kid, disconnect the auto pilot, and fly over to that new runway and land on it raw data. If we have time, I will dial up the localizer, and give you a glide path, but there is a PAPI...
I could not believe the lack of experience that he showed when it was not textbook. Yes, to his credit, he had the approach, runway, and such that he expected to get, programmed well back, but it is the ability to deal with change that makes for good pilots. And that my friends, only experience can teach. I wish Jazz GOOD Luck.
My 250 hour whizz kid sitting next to me had been fine throughout the oceanic crossing, and I was actually relaxed, He had shown good common sense, a good attitude, good knowledge about aircraft systems, and a willingness to learn.
Descending through 8000 ft, ATC gives us a runway change. The weather was severe clear, blue sky, unlimited vis, and we could see the airport and all its runways, taxiways, buildings...
The kid stops thinking, puts his head down and starts reprogramming the FMS for the new runway. never in my career have I ever seen someone put his head down under 10000 feet near an airport that has local traffic. If that is the quality of new grads, and yes this kid was from a college, KEEP THEM. I might have slapped his hand; I can not remember exactly, but my blood pressure went up.
Kid, disconnect the auto pilot, and fly over to that new runway and land on it raw data. If we have time, I will dial up the localizer, and give you a glide path, but there is a PAPI...
I could not believe the lack of experience that he showed when it was not textbook. Yes, to his credit, he had the approach, runway, and such that he expected to get, programmed well back, but it is the ability to deal with change that makes for good pilots. And that my friends, only experience can teach. I wish Jazz GOOD Luck.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room!
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twinpratts
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This is a problem that is industry wide and certainly not limited to new, inexperienced pilots. American Airways has a very good presentation from one of their training guys on this very issue, and he calls it "children of the magenta". It's a lecture done in a very humourous and entertaining way, but is spot on in its message.hifliers wrote:There I was, flying into busy Atlanta, with its 4 parallels.
My 250 hour whizz kid sitting next to me had been fine throughout the oceanic crossing, and I was actually relaxed, He had shown good common sense, a good attitude, good knowledge about aircraft systems, and a willingness to learn.
Descending through 8000 ft, ATC gives us a runway change. The weather was severe clear, blue sky, unlimited vis, and we could see the airport and all its runways, taxiways, buildings...
The kid stops thinking, puts his head down and starts reprogramming the FMS for the new runway. never in my career have I ever seen someone put his head down under 10000 feet near an airport that has local traffic. If that is the quality of new grads, and yes this kid was from a college, KEEP THEM. I might have slapped his hand; I can not remember exactly, but my blood pressure went up.
Kid, disconnect the auto pilot, and fly over to that new runway and land on it raw data. If we have time, I will dial up the localizer, and give you a glide path, but there is a PAPI...
I could not believe the lack of experience that he showed when it was not textbook. Yes, to his credit, he had the approach, runway, and such that he expected to get, programmed well back, but it is the ability to deal with change that makes for good pilots. And that my friends, only experience can teach. I wish Jazz GOOD Luck.
I just wanted to point out that this is not a problem unique to new pilots.
You're right! This will not solve Jazz's crewing requirements. The only thing that would solve this would be for Jazz to pay a fair (decent) starting salary, and continue to hire experienced pilots.Dark Helmet wrote: Sure. It looks good in theory and in paper. Just like the 2 freeze on Jazz pilots from going to AC. However, it has not worked very well for them in reality. No offence but I think it is naive to believe that this will solve Jazz crewing requirements.
Nevertheless, Good Points.
I do not see this "shortage" of pilots. It is interesting that other airlines in Canada are not yet suffering from this "shortage", and also that Jazz is only hiring on average 1 out of 5 that it interviews (of the experienced pilots - who exceed their published minimum requirements). Food for thought!
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small penguin
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lolThe kid stops thinking, puts his head down and starts reprogramming the FMS for the new runway. never in my career have I ever seen someone put his head down under 10000 feet near an airport that has local traffic. If that is the quality of new grads, and yes this kid was from a college, KEEP THEM. I might have slapped his hand; I can not remember exactly, but my blood pressure went up.
Kid, disconnect the auto pilot, and fly over to that new runway and land on it raw data. If we have time, I will dial up the localizer, and give you a glide path, but there is a PAPI...
Its just me and my in-experience but... I'd slap anyone using an autopilot. You're a freaking pilot lol why let a computer have the fun.
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small penguin
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Well, I dont know the details of it, but I do know that it is required and I've heard some instances of "if it is deemed a pilot couldnt make the landing, let the autopilot handle it". Right or wrong as I may be... still one of the several reasons why I dont want to take the commercial airlines path in my flying career.
Canada is not like those previously mentioned countries with Cadet programs, our pilots are taught to fly. Small single/twins and over time work into bigger ones, while gaining experience. Those cadet programs are 3-5 years in length, with not only flying, but hundreds of hours of airplane specific, airline created sessions that teach the cadets to manage the plane’s automation.
That automation is great until ATC gives you a short gate, a crappy vector, or even a runway change. You need to think, and fly the machine, tell that fancy automation what to do, when to do it, and at times disconnect it and hand fly. And most importantly when it’s unsafe to continue and try again. That experience cannot be bought, taught in a classroom, or in a few sim sessions.
Not to burst anyone’s bubble, were not taught that way, nor are the Jazz planes that automated. You have to fly them. They don’t have auto throttles, auto brakes, and Auto land.
Also, I can say with personal experience that some Jazz captains are…Weak. Some need a seasoned copilot beside them, and frankly, the traveling public deserves nothing less.
Pair one of those Captains with a low timer and bad things will happen. I pray I’m wrong.
No offense to these young pilots, but your Ill equipped to handle these machines when things are going great let alone bad weather, a tired captain, and a last minute runway change. Forget an emergency.
I’m not saying your bad pilots, not at all! You’re just not ready for these kind of machines; none of us were at your stage. Anyone saying otherwise is in for a serious wake up call.
Placing college grads in the right seat is a band-aid solution to a pilot retention problem. There is no pilot shortage; there is however a shortage of EXPERIENCED PILOTS who are willing to work for these shit wages for a decade.
There are hundreds of 1500-hour pilots who would make far superior FO’s then these college grads while giving Jazz years of solid service, why not hire them?
That automation is great until ATC gives you a short gate, a crappy vector, or even a runway change. You need to think, and fly the machine, tell that fancy automation what to do, when to do it, and at times disconnect it and hand fly. And most importantly when it’s unsafe to continue and try again. That experience cannot be bought, taught in a classroom, or in a few sim sessions.
Not to burst anyone’s bubble, were not taught that way, nor are the Jazz planes that automated. You have to fly them. They don’t have auto throttles, auto brakes, and Auto land.
Also, I can say with personal experience that some Jazz captains are…Weak. Some need a seasoned copilot beside them, and frankly, the traveling public deserves nothing less.
Pair one of those Captains with a low timer and bad things will happen. I pray I’m wrong.
No offense to these young pilots, but your Ill equipped to handle these machines when things are going great let alone bad weather, a tired captain, and a last minute runway change. Forget an emergency.
I’m not saying your bad pilots, not at all! You’re just not ready for these kind of machines; none of us were at your stage. Anyone saying otherwise is in for a serious wake up call.
Placing college grads in the right seat is a band-aid solution to a pilot retention problem. There is no pilot shortage; there is however a shortage of EXPERIENCED PILOTS who are willing to work for these shit wages for a decade.
There are hundreds of 1500-hour pilots who would make far superior FO’s then these college grads while giving Jazz years of solid service, why not hire them?
Last edited by KAG on Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Ok
Ok small Peguin...
enough! enough!
How can you argue aginst people who do this for a living??
I don't yet...but I try to learn from them when it comes to flying....
I know I have!
enough! enough!
How can you argue aginst people who do this for a living??
I don't yet...but I try to learn from them when it comes to flying....
I know I have!
Asking a pilot about what he thinks of Transport Canada, is like asking a fire hydrant what does he think about dogs.
However, it takes that 100TT guy to understand what they are looking at. I have found that the 10TT will just look and the 100TT guy will answer the hows and whys better.small penguin wrote:But (at least in my opinion and in my eyes) we have several key advantages too. We are more observant. Watching people do a walk-around on the 172, the new guy doing his training doing his first few walk arounds (if done properly) always seems to be more vigilant and more careful than the guy with 100TT who graduated PPL a few months ago. .
What you need to know is, how to get what you need to know.
This is not a retreat. Its an advance to the rear.
There are only 10 people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
This is not a retreat. Its an advance to the rear.
There are only 10 people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
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small penguin
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Re: Ok
Im not arguing lol. My last post simply affirmed the reason why I dont want to fly commercially. Its not my kind of flying.THEICEMAN wrote:Ok small Peguin...
enough! enough!
How can you argue aginst people who do this for a living??
I don't yet...but I try to learn from them when it comes to flying....
I know I have!
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JohnnyHotRocks
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I'd slap them if they didn't. If they hand flew an entire check ride, I would also fail them.small penguin wrote:
lol
Its just me and my in-experience but... I'd slap anyone using an autopilot. You're a freaking pilot lol why let a computer have the fun.
I hate to say it and I know most won't agree but, use of automation is more important than handflying these days.
Wasn't there a study done in the UK regarding the "trans-cockpit authority gradient"? Something about effective CRM needs an 'optimum' gradient rather than a 'too flat' (i.e. two equally qualifed Captains) or 'too steep' (i.e. junior first officers) gradient.
Interesting times!
Interesting times!
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squawk 7600
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good post KAG.
I have just a few questions:
What do you think would happen if the travelling public found out that Jazz was hiring student pilots that aren't even experienced enough to hold the proper licence (ATPL) generally required to fly these types of aircraft?
What will they think when they find out that experienced pilots with ATPL's were being over looked to hire these college students?
What will they think when they find out what Jazz is paying their pilots and the reason for this student pilot program is because pilots are refusing to work there and are jumping over to WEstJet?
Jeez, if I were the travelling public I'd think AC and Jazz were having problems and change my travel plans to include WestJet. WestJet must be safer, they pay better wages and all the pilots want to work there.
I have just a few questions:
What do you think would happen if the travelling public found out that Jazz was hiring student pilots that aren't even experienced enough to hold the proper licence (ATPL) generally required to fly these types of aircraft?
What will they think when they find out that experienced pilots with ATPL's were being over looked to hire these college students?
What will they think when they find out what Jazz is paying their pilots and the reason for this student pilot program is because pilots are refusing to work there and are jumping over to WEstJet?
Jeez, if I were the travelling public I'd think AC and Jazz were having problems and change my travel plans to include WestJet. WestJet must be safer, they pay better wages and all the pilots want to work there.
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squawk 7600
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....and another thing,
Small Penguin, your posts show a complete lack of experience. Are you serious when you are talking about walkarounds on a 172 on this thread??? Just the mention of 172's and Jazz in the same sentence shows how inexperienced these guys are going to be and what a joke this whole program is. You're saying you would slap your co-pilot's hand if they refused to handfly and decided to use the autopilot? Have you ever heard of RVSM? Did you ever hear the story of the new AIR Canada pilot who switched off the autopilot in RVSM? That woman had her peepee slapped and is now fighting for her job back.
Small Penguin, your posts show a complete lack of experience. Are you serious when you are talking about walkarounds on a 172 on this thread??? Just the mention of 172's and Jazz in the same sentence shows how inexperienced these guys are going to be and what a joke this whole program is. You're saying you would slap your co-pilot's hand if they refused to handfly and decided to use the autopilot? Have you ever heard of RVSM? Did you ever hear the story of the new AIR Canada pilot who switched off the autopilot in RVSM? That woman had her peepee slapped and is now fighting for her job back.
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Dark Helmet
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Well Fellas. All good points and good arguments. And I think we all agree on several issues.
Reality is what is done is done. Jazz has hired these college grads. We can argue a lot more on this forum but it is unlikely that it is going to change anything.
Only time will tell wether this will work out or not.
Good luck to everyone
Cheers.
Reality is what is done is done. Jazz has hired these college grads. We can argue a lot more on this forum but it is unlikely that it is going to change anything.
Only time will tell wether this will work out or not.
Good luck to everyone
Cheers.
