is celestial navigation dead?

[SuperchargedRS]

It seems that in allot of the flight colleges have to take some non flight classes, like English or some such nonsense; would it not be a better investment in time to..say teach the proper use of a sextant!

I know in the modern world most will never use it, but it is a good tool to have, heck the stars are'nt going to "malfunction"...

[just curious]

Dunno about the rest of the world, but this is mounted right above our IFR GPS

[Doc]

I was talking to this sailor in Halifax a few years ago. He was in his early 70's and had just crossed the pond(single handed) in a lovely little sloop. I asked about his nav skills with a sextant. He gave me a blank stare, and said.."Hell, I have three GPS's!!"

[Luscombe]

I suppose it has been relegated to fate of the dodo bird. I suppose it's all "nice to know" stuff, but in reality it's not essential.

Last time I checked, they didn't teach high school kids how to use slide rulers. I was (hey, I'm showing my age), but it was quickly discarded for a pocket calculator as soon as they became affordable. Knowledge of how to use a slide ruler was useful in helping me to figure out the E6B and Jepp flight computers, but beyond that not really important.

Celestial navigation is very similar in today's world... nice to know but not essential.

[Tamago]

That would be cool learning how to actually do celestial navigation, and not just a peek at it, but really get the gear out.

As for taking English classes, I think companies simply shouldn't hire pilots who don't already have an education (i.e. at least a university degree). Throw away English class, but don't hire people who can't see beyond planes, cars, and bikes.

[Apache64_]

Its kinda funny. I routinely fly into the Arctic, usualy not farther than Gjoa Haven or so. I noticed one day when I was in the office that we had quite a few sextants kickin around. I asked if they were going to be put in the aircraft. I was told no, we need an STC to modify the aircraft to have a sextant installed. For me, I read it when I did my A exams, didn't have too much of grasp on it. Forgot it all, seems like I won't be using it anytime soon.

Cheers

Apache

[The Other Kind]

I think companies simply shouldn't hire pilots who don't already have an education (i.e. at least a university degree).

Please explain how a degree makes someone a better pilot.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think companies simply shouldn't hire pilots who don't already have an education (i.e. at least a university degree).

Please explain how a degree makes someone a better pilot.

Throw back to an old class based system. If you have your degree, obviously you're rich enough to go to university and come from a family to which right of birth makes you a qualified decision maker - and therefore get your commision as an officer, so the enlisted bunch can send you off to war. Aviation love to hold onto stuff like this, which still exists in today's armed forces - and is held over to pilots who fly airliners...

I didn't want to post in this discussion seeing though I remember using slide rulers, and know how to use an astrocompass and sextant... Damn, I'm not that old!

[shitdisturber]

I think companies simply shouldn't hire pilots who don't already have an education (i.e. at least a university degree).

Please explain how a degree makes someone a better pilot.

Throw back to an old class based system. If you have your degree, obviously you're rich enough to go to university and come from a family to which right of birth makes you a qualified decision maker - and therefore get your commision as an officer, so the enlisted bunch can send you off to war. Aviation love to hold onto stuff like this, which still exists in today's armed forces - and is held over to pilots who fly airliners...

I didn't want to post in this discussion seeing though I remember using slide rulers, and know how to use an astrocompass and sextant... Damn, I'm not that old!

Apparently you are; I've never used any of those.

[Hedley]

Please explain how a degree makes someone a better pilot.

Sure. This has never been discussed here before, so I will clear it up for you.

See, someone who has spent 4 years at university screwing his way from one end of the campus to the other, will be a much happier person than someone who has spent 4 years slinging bags on a freezing ramp somewhere miserable 'way the hell up north.

As anyone can tell you, personality is everything in aviation. The flying part really isn't very hard. So, when you're hiring someone, do you hire someone with a great big smile on their face (from 4 years of non-stop screwing) or someone with frostbite, a chip on their shoulder and a large dose of class anger?

See? I knew you would understand!

[Shiny Side Up]

Apparently you are; I've never used any of those.

You probably have, you're just too old and have probably forgotten. Speaking of old... don't you have to go get your medical again?

[Tamago]

Please explain how a degree makes someone a better pilot.

The same way it makes anyone who does any other job better at their job.

It doesn't necessarily mean someone will be better, but it's a good indication that someone has at some point in their life, had a rounded education, instead of simply training. If it's simply training and being efficient at techniques and procedures, robotics can be used to do that.

When you know that someone's gone to university, you know that person is capable of reading a book other than a technical manual, you know that person has been in a social situation involving many people from all walks of life, etc.

Perhaps it was different 50 years ago, but it's the norm to go to university these days, so actually I would really have to wonder why someone skipped university and just went into a profession based on training. University isn't a matter of class or coming from a wealthy family at all. That may have been the case before.

I would definitely feel more safe taking a trip on a plane flown by pilots with something more than just flight training behind them. Maybe we should leave this in the "don't tell, don't ask" category as their are obviously some very excellent pilots out there who don't have a university or college degree. Still, I would have to wonder why they didn't go. Were they afraid of studying? Did they just want to get into a well-paying job asap? Did they know they couldn't make it?

[shitdisturber]

Apparently you are; I've never used any of those.

You probably have, you're just too old and have probably forgotten. Speaking of old... don't you have to go get your medical again?

Speaking of old, don't you have a birthday coming up?

[The Other Kind]

Well, I guess I've been cheating death all these years, what with not having a degree and all. How dare I risk the lives of my passengers by flying an aircraft without a post secondary education. The guys/gals out there with degrees in basket-weaving sure do make much better aviators....

As far as why someone wouldn't want to pursue post-secondary education, I guess everyone has different reasons. I can tell you that it had absolutely nothing to do with me 'not being able to make it.' That's just laughable. I simply did not want to WASTE 4 years of my life taking courses that would serve me very little down the road. I could have studied meteorology or something aviation related, but the only thing I wanted to do was fly and felt that the best thing for me to do was get the licence and ratings and get working ASAP. I've worked VERY hard to get where I am and I feel quite comfortable in saying that I've probably scored higher on all TC exams, flight tests, PPC's, check rides, etc than most pilots - even the ones with a 'higher education'.

Sometimes I think people get too full of themselves in this business. We might wear white shirts, but this is a blue-collar job. There's nothing wrong with having a degree, just like there's nothing wrong with NOT having one.

[C-GGGQ]

Perhaps it was different 50 years ago, but it's the norm to go to university these days, so actually I would really have to wonder why someone skipped university and just went into a profession based on training. University isn't a matter of class or coming from a wealthy family at all. That may have been the case before.

I would definitely feel more safe taking a trip on a plane flown by pilots with something more than just flight training behind them. Maybe we should leave this in the "don't tell, don't ask" category as their are obviously some very excellent pilots out there who don't have a university or college degree. Still, I would have to wonder why they didn't go. Were they afraid of studying? Did they just want to get into a well-paying job asap? Did they know they couldn't make it?

Actually less than 50% of high school students go to university and of that less than 50% finish. I went to University, tried two different degrees found them both useless to me as a pilot, and the time i spent in university kept me out of the work force, so i was not gaining experience and getting that seniority number. Most of the kids that go to university now a days go because they think thats what they should do, they take some basic arts degree with no idea of what they will do after, they just "need" that arts degree. At least people who choose a technical trade be it a Pilot (cause thats what it is a trade) or a welder, electrician etc. Know what they want to do, get the training to do it, then go do it, not spend 50K on a degree they have no idea what they will do with.

[Tamago]

Go ahead, belittle an education. Make pilots look stupid if you want.

[costermonger]

Make pilots look stupid if you want.

Says the guy who apparently can't understand why not everybody wants to spend $60,000 and four years of their life on something they don't need.

[C-GGGQ]

are you saying that electricians or, welders, or mechanics are stupid? they don't have degrees either. A degree has nothing to do with how smart you are. In my experience there is nothing taught in an arts degree you couldn't find out for yourself. Its just a bunch of classes on subjects you find interesting, with a focus on a specific subject. If it interests you, learn about it, you don't need to pay 40-50K to have someone teach it too you.

[costermonger]

A degree has nothing to do with how smart you are. In my experience there is nothing taught in an arts degree you couldn't find out for yourself. Its just a bunch of classes on subjects you find interesting, with a focus on a specific subject. If it interests you, learn about it, you don't need to pay 40-50K to have someone teach it too you.

Bingo. There's absolutely no reason to believe that pilot A is better than pilot B because A was writing essays on Shakespeare in a dorm while B was pumping gas into the wing of a plane in the arctic. Pilot A might very well be a better pilot, but you'll never convince me it's because he's got an arts degree.

I've got nothing against people who go to university - given unlimited resources, I'd go right now. However, I don't live in this magical world where finances aren't a barrier for anyone who wants to go to university. I had enough money (that is to say - was able to borrow enough money) to go college and flight school *or* university. Not both.

[Shiny Side Up]

No one's belittling education - but they are being rightfully critical of the "university" education as it stands today. For too many university is where they go when someone doesn't know what to do with their life so the become a "student" to figure it out. Chances are, they switch their major multiple times during this tenure. Not really the dedication I'd look for in an employee. While you're right that ideally a university degree should represent a superior learning ability, in my experience (both as an employer and a post secondary student) it rarely does. Mind you that's more a symptom of the human beast not to take full advantage of an opportunity given that a probllem with the system itself. Call it a little bit of "class anger" if you will, but given the rising costs of education, a university education is more a sign that you were wealthy to afford one, rather than a sign that you were driven by ambition to get one.

[SuperchargedRS]

The kids that switch maj.s and flip flop around college never amount to anything 90% of the time anyway (except a money pit for their parents / bank).

Now having a degree (a real degree that is) shows some commitment (assuming a good gpa from a good school), HOWEVER as anecdotal as it may be I know people who kicked azzz in college (2 BAs and a Doc) and are working as....ready.....a manager in a bedding store (sells sheets and whatnot, a job ANYONE could land), so college is a good tool if used properly and can put you ahead, but only if used correctly, BUT IT IS JUST A TOOL NOT A FILLER FOR SHORTCOMINGS!

[Jungle Jim]

I went to college and worked as a Tool and Diemaker before returning to school to get an Engineering degree. The money I make now allows me to be able to afford to fly. I fly enought to get "my fix" and that's all I'm concerned with. I don't judge anyone by their education. Just do what suits you. Let's move to another topic.

Jim