Air Canada take home pay??

[Goose757]

Hi RB

I usually do Phoenix or Seattle turns out of Toronto which gives me an 8 to 9 day month and at home next to my wife each night. This does not include vacation. Basically, if you can get 8 hours a day, your done in 10.

Long Haul is not usually as productive. The most productivity I was able to get on Long Haul was Toronto- Tel Aviv which was a 24 hour credit while being away from home 48 hours. Felt like shit when I got home though and I don't really like counting my months landings on one hand.

The top of any domestic airplane at AC will give you productive flying. The 320 has Barbados turns for instance giving you an 8 day month. The 767, same thing.

Nothing like that on the 340/330 or 777 however.

And my T4 for last year was 142K

Hey Jaques.

Which aircraft are you on? Sounds like the 320 to me. How long have you been with AC? For me, it doesn't really matter how many days a month I work, but the important thing for me is to be home most/every night. Just wondering how long it would take to build up enough seniority to get a schedule like yours.

What does "The top of any domestic airplane" mean? Is that just a fancy way of saying the most senior pilots? Thanks for the info.

[Jaques Strappe]

Hey Goose

I am on the Embraer and that is because I prefer to be senior so I can control my schedule. If I went to the 320, I would be working 14-16 days a month and most certainly would not be doing productive turns. You would need to sit in the top 15% for that.

When I say "top of any domestic airplane" what I mean by that is usually, the top 10 to 15% of the guys/gals on that airplane are doing productive flying and spending more time at home. That applies to both the left and right seats. The demographic has changed drastically since I joined. Then you would typically bid to the highest level you could and the left seat as soon as you could hold it. Now guys are more inclined to go for lifestyle because they have realized that the government has not figured out yet how to tax your time off. Time at home with family is priceless to me.

There is usually a big gap in seniority numbers from the top to the bottom of any airplane as well. The Embraer Captains list spans over 2000 numbers. I have 12 years in which provides a part time schedule. Having said that, there are some senior 320 F/O's enjoying the same schedule with with a lot less time at the company. The senior Embraer F/O's enjoying the same schedule are all new hires however, they are obviously motivated to get out of the pay group.

It is like endless pointed out earlier, it all depends on when during the cycle you get hired.

[60N]

On the topic of pilots being underpaid. My X brother in law drives a streetcar for TTC. Salary. 90K plus overtime.

You could also earn 70K+ filling out P/O's at a lumber store in the GVRD. I think that job requires about 2 hours of OJT before you are cut loose for solo P/O filling.

Or how about installing crown molding for $44.00 per/hr. That's a part time job. Full time job firefighter.

What has happened to this profession?

[Observer69]

"On the topic of pilots being underpaid. My X brother in law drives a streetcar for TTC. Salary. 90K plus overtime."


Not wanting to argue with you....but....just wondering how many hours/month, or days worked your TTC driver worked to make 90G....


"You could also earn 70K+ filling out P/O's at a lumber store in the GVRD. I think that job requires about 2 hours of OJT before you are cut loose for solo P/O filling.
Or how about installing crown molding for $44.00 per/hr. That's a part time job. Full time job firefighter.
What has happened to this profession?"

Even making 60G at 70hr/month as a EMB FO (I dont know if thats an accurate salary) But...using some very rough math...

thats still around $70/hr is it not? At 8 days a month sounds pretty part time to me.......

Now don't get me wrong...i don't want the higherups to see this and lick their chops at cutting wages.....

but....for an average viewer popping by this forum....there seems to be a lot of free time for a lot of people to think of a lot of ways to complain!!!!!

just my 2cents

[mighty mouse]

keep in mind; the AC pay system is based on flying hours. so when you say your 60000$ salary is based on 80 hours of flying a month, you actually work double if not nearly triple that just to get your 80 hours of flight time.

[perserverando]

Anybody get hired direct on to the A-320 ?

Is that really unlikely or not possible

[Jaques Strappe]

New hires are currently being trained directly in to the A320 as well as the Embraer.

[Flyingbug]

If you are senior on the EMB, it is possible to work 8 days per month. and also be home every night.

DATE Flights Total
F 31
S 1
S 2
M 3
T 4 197-196 8:52
W 5 197-196 8:52
T 6 197-196 8:52
F 7
S 8
S 9
M 10
T 11
W 12
T 13
F 14
S 15
S 16
M 17 197-196 8:52
T 18 589-590 8:38
W 19
T 20
F 21
S 22
S 23
M 24 197-196 8:52
T 25 589-590 8:38
W 26 589-590 8:38
T 27
F 28
S 29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total 70:14

Wow, 8 days a month of work, that's amazing...we at United express on the Emb 145 iget a maximum of 13 days off a month and they definately are not in a row like you have it....sounds like we get the short end of the stick for doing the similar type of flying ( relatively speaking) being star alliance members and going to the same destinations in the US, sharing the same gates and dealing with the same most brilliant United, gate/ramp personnel in the industry.

A little off topic here, just curious what is the upgrade time to left seat on the EMB/A320 at AC?
Also, the upgrade mins for experience and if it is strictly seniority based or performance based like Cathay.

I am a Canadian citizen flying in the U.S, married no kids, looking to come back, any thoughts would greatly help.

[CAL]

For the AC drivers....

What do you guys see in terms of hiring this year? Surely things have to slow down for a while? Any chances of the starting wages being increased to attract more experienced pilots?

Also what happens if you get stuck on the Emb? Does that then cap out your salary?

Basically the concern for guys coming to AC is not only the very low starting wages but the potential of getting stuck on a machine that does not pay or is it like that? Because although you may be able to swing two years being poor again what if that goes into a third and forth?

Thanks

[babybus]

CAL,

At the moment most EMJ FO's that are on it after 2 years are the ones that choose to do so for seniority.Most get to bid off of it after 1 or 2 bids.
That being said you have a point in that when the music stops you may find yourself stuck on it for a while like some of the guys back in the CRJ days.I think that when you leave flat pay on the EMJ it jumps to about 55-60K,not the best but better than the 37K to start.
It's a gamble that we all had to take and for the vast majority it worked out well.My first 2 years were not the easiest financially but the pay after that more than made up for it.
Will the pay go up?Well if it does it won't be until late 2009 when the contract is up.And if it does I doubt that it will be anything major.
From memory the last bid showed around 130 new-hires for 2008 but where they will be placed (EMJ or RP) is anyones guess.

[CAL]

Babybus,

Thanks for the post...very informative and summed it all up.....

Good to see some guys still being hired in 08'


Cal

[WF9F]

Babybus,

The increase in the starting wage will only increase if guys like you,me and all the new hires vote NO. Stop the trend of " well i only made $XXXXXX when i got hired" and of eating our young. This crap stops in 09 with about 1000 new hires since July 05, we will be a large percentage of the vote. ACPA better realize this or it will bite them in the a$$. You owe it to the guys and gals coming after you. Sounds like you may have subcribed to that AC mentality, hope you have not.

Do not forget the junior end of our list. Nobody should have to go threw what we went threw, trying to live and raise a family on $37000. (That is for OTS new hires as JAZZ gets alot more than anyone else. That will also end in 2009 as ACE will not exist or even own any part of JAZZ. So long to LOU 18)

Remember where you were not to long ago and insist on change.It can and will happen. We are a powerful group.

WF9F

[Phlyer]

Is it really $37,000 a year at Air Canada to start? I thought that was Jazz wages and mainline was about $43.

[tonysoprano]

In all my years at this company and at Jazz I have always made more than what the "official" salary was. That included my first year which was supposed to be $32k and my T4 showed $38-something. Not a huge difference but the point is to expect more than what the tables show. And no, that does not include per diems. So you wanna be a pilot, eh?

[yycflyguy]

In all my years at this company and at Jazz I have always made more than what the "official" salary was. That included my first year which was supposed to be $32k and my T4 showed $38-something. Not a huge difference but the point is to expect more than what the tables show. And no, that does not include per diems. So you wanna be a pilot, eh?

Tony, just curious as to how many years ago you joined AC? I doubt that $32k then has been porpotionally adjusted for cost of living/inflation. Even though everyone states that new-whore wages are only for 2 years it is actually closer to 2 and a half as initial training was so slow. Our counterparts at Westjet make significantly more the first 5 years of their careers and because of this AC is loosing lots of qualified, good people to the Blue side. Buddy of mine was in the enviable position of have a simulataneous offer from AC AND Westjet... guess where he is going.

Babybus,

The increase in the starting wage will only increase if guys like you,me and all the new hires vote NO. Stop the trend of " well i only made $XXXXXX when i got hired" and of eating our young. This crap stops in 09 with about 1000 new hires since July 05, we will be a large percentage of the vote. ACPA better realize this or it will bite them in the a$$. You owe it to the guys and gals coming after you. Sounds like you may have subcribed to that AC mentality, hope you have not.

Do not forget the junior end of our list. Nobody should have to go threw what we went threw, trying to live and raise a family on $37000. (That is for OTS new hires as JAZZ gets alot more than anyone else. That will also end in 2009 as ACE will not exist or even own any part of JAZZ. So long to LOU 18)

Remember where you were not to long ago and insist on change.It can and will happen. We are a powerful group.

WF9F

Bang on, 100% on the money.

I don't begrudge the Jazz guys getting a higher pay grade as they did contribute to the company's bottom line for a lot of years. Unfortunately, it plays into managements hands that it is another way to divide the pilot group. Don't get sucked into it.

It always reminds me of the words of wisdom spoken to me years ago by a fellow colleague. If he left a company with having made a positive change in their operations for the people coming in behind him, he would deem his tenure a success.

[tonysoprano]

yyc.
Late nineties. The inflation adjustment went out the window during Milton's fancy CCAA scheme. Also, as per your buddy example, I can give you an example of a buddy who just took a big cut in salary to join AC. He could have just turned us down, right? I don't agree with your claim that we are losing qualified, good people. Have a look at the new hire bios on the website. They sure seem qualified to me. The WJ example is not as cut and dry as you claim. Because of the profit sharing program, take home pay is quite low. You have to do some innovated budgeting at home until that "big" cheque comes in. Anyway you slice it, it's slim picking everywhere. Been there, done it. Let's hope we can improve it. I'm not holding my breath.

[yycflyguy]

Tony,

That's all we can strive for is to better the conditions for future members. I know there is a long laundry list of groups that feel they need to be looked after, specifically the Airbus guys who took a bigger hit then the rest of the membership and the Embraer group who was given their work conditions through CCAA and doesn't fall in line with what the DC9 guys were getting.

I still feel we are loosing good, qualified people to other airlines. I am not saying we aren't getting good people just that the ones that agree to it are are financially able to withstand the 2.5 years. Those that can't are choosing other alternatives. At least we are in a cycle were there ARE other options.

[tonysoprano]

I've stated this before and I'll repeat it again. One of the problems is that entry level positions are low ranking to begin with. An RP position or FO on an airplane the size of an Emb do not pay good money anywhere. It's not just an AC problem, it's industry wide. Have a look at down south. You'll be even more disgusted. If you are lucky enough to get hired with a company onto a widebody as an entry level FO, I'm sure the starting salary would be much higher. That's one reason many canadians go overseas. Also, considering that you are on probation and can get fired on the spot and that the company has also just spent alot of cash training you, perhaps they feel they shouldn't be paying you too much. Not making excuses for the company but surely that's one factor. Realistically, I think that starting salaries at AC should be about $10k higher.

[Flyingbug]

I've stated this before and I'll repeat it again. One of the problems is that entry level positions are low ranking to begin with. An RP position or FO on an airplane the size of an Emb do not pay good money anywhere. It's not just an AC problem, it's industry wide. Have a look at down south. You'll be even more disgusted. If you are lucky enough to get hired with a company onto a widebody as an entry level FO, I'm sure the starting salary would be much higher. That's one reason many canadians go overseas. Also, considering that you are on probation and can get fired on the spot and that the company has also just spent alot of cash training you, perhaps they feel they shouldn't be paying you too much. Not making excuses for the company but surely that's one factor. Realistically, I think that starting salaries at AC should be about $10k higher.

you are absolutely right....look at the newly adjusted pay scales at U.S on the EMB after the America West merger....they aren't any better...and it stays like that for a long time...now that's because U.S air has been having problems for a long time...and who knows now with the Delta=Northwest/United merger, if the long enjoyed starting pay by delta pilots is going to come down as a cost cutting incentive.

but I agree with Tony...the starting pay at AC being the only Legacy carrier in Canada...should be at least 10k higher...to attract some experienced pilot's already in the industry looking for stability.