Sneakier tricks pulled by examiners during P.P.C.'s

180 · Post by **180** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:02 pm

Let's hear some of the sneakier tricks pulled on you during rides...

-Examiner points to a cloud at your 9 and asks you to indentify it, meanwhile pulling a circuit breaker, or switching a radio frequency, or changing the position of your flap lever selector, or turning down the volume on a radio.

-Fire extinguisher pin removed. (pre-flight)

-Intercept orders removed from documents. (pre-flight)

I'm sure there are some good ones out there...let's hear 'em.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:14 pm

Transport will probably ask the moderator to have this thread yanked, like the one in Flight Training - wouldn't it constitute "cheating on an exam"?

g5 · Post by g5 » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:24 pm

Intercept orders are in the CFS aren't they?

Fucked if I know, I never checked...

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:25 pm

I heard about this one so second hand and it was just during training for a CPL. Intsructor places scotch tape over Pitot tube, asks the student if he's done the walk around. Sure have boss!

Thourough walk around lesson learned by student.

Don't try it you might forget about it.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:48 pm

I have never had to ask a trick question on a ride. People are capable of screwing up rides just through lack of basic effort.

Try reading the following before a ride:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... 3/menu.htm
http://www.icpschool.com/exams.html
(Do the two exams from any year)
Your Ops Manual especially chapter 3
Your SOPs
Your AFM, limitations and emergencies
The CAP Gen
When you show up for the ride, check the weather and notams and print them out.
Have your licence medical and old ppc card with you.
Have current charts.
Check the aircraft documents.

If you've done this don't worry about the Q&A part of the ride.

180 · Post by **180** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:37 pm

This isn't about cheating, Hedley...and I wasn't looking for tips on how to pass a ride, Just Curious, although thanks for the reading list.

I'm talking about 'snickidy bastage' style sneakery...like .'s scotch tape on the pitot tube...

Stuff that's happened to you on a ride that keeps you sharp but had you shaking your head thinking "He got me there..."

Check Pilot · Post by **Check Pilot** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:34 pm

Lean forward half way down a nicely flown ILS and ask "Where are you going?"

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:38 pm

I once had to chose between an engine with a TR deployed but had the only servicable generator and the other engine on fire.. That was pushing the multiple unrelated guidelines but it was all in fun. The boxes for the ride had been checked. It was also in a sim.

I can't believe people still perform any trickery on rides especially in an airplane. Safe training practices would prohibit the pulling of any system C/B. I hope people aren"t really still doing that.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:02 pm

The ACP Manual, which is the check pilots bible, strictly prohibits sneaky practices such as pulling a C/B, disabling a system, resetting any flight control, issuing an illegal clearance or asking for a manoeuvre that will place the aircraft or it's occupants in peril. There is no reason nor excuse for such childish behavior. Checkpilots are also prohibited from introducing multiple unrelated failures but if the candidate introduces a failure by him/herself, well!!. I do not know if you are even allowed to put a soapsaver over vital instruments. You are allowed to introduce related failures. An example is a fuel low pressure failure in a King Air which can lead to a loss of oil pressure and high oil temperature which will require a precautionary shut down of the engine. All engine failures are simulated by retarding the power levers to zero thrust, (not idle). I would not be a bit surprised if TC asked that the thread be pulled because it just dumb.
But if you are curious and want to see what is asked or required during a PPC, just go to TC's website and look up TP 6533, at http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publi ... 3/menu.htm
In this manual you will find a section on PPC's and common mistakes. Read them and avoid them and you will ace a checkride.

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:50 pm

Here's some of the stuff I've had over the years.

Once on the F-27 an inspector signed my IFR renewal before we boarded the aircraft. The ride consisted of a departure, one steep turn and a back course with a missed approach all the while the inspector was pulling breakers and failing phase adaptors.

Also on the F-27, but in the sim this time, an engine fire with subsequent shut down followed by a generator failure on the good engine, followed by a single engine missed approach. The batteries (no APU on the aircraft) wound down and dropped off the line just as we broke out on the second ILS. The instructor did an Ernie Gann and lit matches so I could see the airspeed indicator for the final couple hundred feet to touchdown.

Once on a G1 ride we were on top of a shallow broken layer of cloud at ILS minimums. We called missed approach and climbed out, changed seats and the co-pilot did his ride. I told him I would call the runway environment in sight on his ILS. We did his approach and again were on top at minimums, but I picked up the approach lights and called runway environment in sight and we landed. Then we all went to the Flying Club and had a few beers. With the same inspector I was doing a ride with a guy on the G1 for an initial G1 endorsement. Again a layer of fog had moved in at about 300 feet but with good viz underneath. We did a couple of VFR circuits at 300 feet, no problem.

I once did a ride on the DC-3, just me and the DOT inspector. He acted as co-pilot. Try and do that nowadays.

. . · Post by **. .** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:27 pm

I thought that the regs had changed so you didn't need to carry intercept orders or a weight and balance on the plane anymore. I think they were both removed from the CARs. Can anyone actually find a link saying that they are required anymore?

4blue · Post by **4blue** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:32 pm

I don't know about intercept orders, but for a commercial operation (703) you are required to carry the weight and balance report (i.e. the weight / arm of the "Basic Empty" plane) and be able to prove the w&b to be within limits if ramped.

So you don't need to have a completed weight and balance, but if ramped show the examiner that you are indeed within limits.

black hole · Post by **black hole** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:32 pm

I know that this happens all the time. I have had it happen twice.
First when I was a green horn doing a multi ride and the inspector continually moved the seat for and aft causing me to trim and retrim for the duation of the flight.

Second time when I was doing the instrument portion for CPL; The insspector was holding right rudder pressure. I felt somthing wasn't right and pulled my feet off the rudders and it swung to the right and he says sorry and ended the instrument portion of the ride. I passed the ride with no comment!

BH

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:42 pm

i never had any tester trick me, just get in my way once during my multi ride, failed the engine and started trying to acheive zero thrust, as i was trying to move the levers full forward (for the overshoot) and raise gear and flaps. instead of just failing the engine letting me straiten the plane out and then adjust the controls to zero thrust

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:20 pm

4blue, it'd be more fun to tell the guy who ramps you, to prove you are not within CG limits.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:25 pm

and be able to prove the w&b to be within limits if ramped.

By showing him/her your license you proved you know how to do a W&B.

They can not make you demonstrate you can do one.

4blue · Post by **4blue** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:51 pm

Well whether I need to demonstrate my competance at doing a w&b, I'd rather just show them, then be a dick, wait while they spend 30-60 minutes trying to figure out how to do it, just to see if I'm good or not.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:11 am

the worst I've seen were 2 ywg examiners come up north on a friday to do PPC's and were trying to find any excuse to 'not' do an exam. they grounded my plane because the the chieftain's trim indicator was u/s. It was something we never used, and never trusted even when it did work. Needless to say, the company got audited instead. their twin otter picked them up just in time to take them back to winnipeg in time for happy hour.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:12 am

having said that, the best ppc ride I've had was with a ywg examiner too... go figure.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:42 am

Well whether I need to demonstrate my competance at doing a w&b, I'd rather just show them, then be a dick, wait while they spend 30-60 minutes trying to figure out how to do it, just to see if I'm good or not.

Are you suggesting that refusing to be bullied by a TC inspector is being a dick?

TC has no legal right to detain you from going about your legal business unless they have reason to believe you are in contrevention of law.

Refusing to demonstrate you can do a W&B is not in contrevention of law.

But if you wish to spend your career cowing to bullies have at it.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:54 am

As Old Timer has pointed out, the Check pilot course basically forbids "trickery".

I think it may have its place where an Instructor puts tape on the pitot but points it out after the student misses it. That is TRAINING, it is not TESTING.

I once worked for a guy whose favourite trick was to shut down both engines and expect you to deadstick the plane back on the strip. I decided that if he ever did it to me, I would throw both hands in the air and declare "YOU have control." (I suppose then, the daft bastard would have killed us both.)

This fits with Cat Driver's comments about bullying. The pilot being tested has to know the ground he/she stands on and insist on their right in such events. SAFETY is always the first consideration. Fooling around with multiple or impossible problems in a Simulator is fun. It stretches your capabilities, makes you humble and gives you some indication of how you might respond. But, you never die.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:06 am

endless wrote:I thought that the regs had changed so you didn't need to carry intercept orders or a weight and balance on the plane anymore. I think they were both removed from the CARs. Can anyone actually find a link saying that they are required anymore?

You aren't required to carry the intercept orders anymore but you are required to carry the CFS which has the intercept orders in it. One of those rare times when TC got it right, eliminating unnecessary redundancy.

Masta-Fred · Post by **Masta-Fred** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:01 am

shitdisturber wrote:
endless wrote:I thought that the regs had changed so you didn't need to carry intercept orders or a weight and balance on the plane anymore. I think they were both removed from the CARs. Can anyone actually find a link saying that they are required anymore?
You aren't required to carry the intercept orders anymore but you are required to carry the CFS which has the intercept orders in it. One of those rare times when TC got it right, eliminating unnecessary redundancy.

i thought it was no need to carry interception orders if you have them memorized however if you dont (like the greater majority of us) then they must be on board...

. . · Post by **. .** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:27 am

I agree that you need to know the current empty weight and index, but it was my understanding that you don't need the actual print off of your planes weight and balance. As far as the CFS, if you're just doing circuits you don't need a CFS on board do you? I realize this is semantics, but I had it come up years ago on a flight test and was corrected when I said you needed intercept orders and a current weight and balance print off.

Dominic220 · Post by **Dominic220** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:57 am

Cat Driver wrote:
By showing him/her your license you proved you know how to do a W&B.

They can not make you demonstrate you can do one.

That may be true, but what happens when you get some... Turd Furgeson that demands to see it done by the book, and demands to see a W+B done on the spot? Does that mean I can say "well, I have my lisence so I must know how to do one. Please leave me alone so I may continue my next leg of my flight?" This is keeping in mind, I'd be under the GA, not 'for revenue' umbrella.