Flight School vs Aviation College

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:29 pm

I did the college route in Ontario and would certainly do it again. I can't honestly say that I ever got a job because of my College Diploma but no doubt it tipped the scales a couple of times and I can say that I have gotten jobs because of the friends that I made and the people I met through college.

First from where I stand today looking at the training industry I see only a few true Aviation College Programs in the country. A couple in Ontario come to mind where you go to school full time to become a pilot. There seems to be a lot of Want-To-Be Schools who are jumping on the band wagon preaching Aviation Diploma while allowing a local Flying Club to suck you dry of all your money. One in Manitoba comes to mind!!! To me a true Aviation College is one where you pay your tuition and they train you, period. Just like someone taking Nursing, or Engineering. None of those students ever have to enroll in a College and then go to the local hospital or engineering firm and pay extra for their required training.

I know many pilots who have gone both routes and I certainly can't say one way is better than the other. For me, it was living for 2 years in the enviroment that made the difference. You live and breathe Aviation and your classmates become your friends forever.

I did my Private Licence at the local Flying Club before I went to College and the training was great. The only difference was, that once your lesson was over you walked out and that was it until the next lesson and you never got the chance to form the bonds you did in College.

Of course this is just my opinion but I would do it the same way again.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:42 pm

The lack of hands and feet training is apalling in a lot of todays pilots.

I just can't believe that anyone can actually hold a license and not know how to physically fly an airplane.

What good is book learning when the pilot wrecks the airplane due to poor aircraft handling skills?

GRRRR.... It drives me nuts.

Cat

LastSamurai · Post by **LastSamurai** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:06 pm

My apologies go out to airtids, his employees and company for this post--it was indeed uncalled for.

G

LastSamurai · Post by **LastSamurai** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:09 pm

These are also the skills that a Chief Pilot looks for in an entry level pilot, along with a good attitude (not above washing a plane to help out because, 'Hey, I dropped $60,000'), and a great personality.

Airtids...this is total BS There are a lot of Selkirk grads out there who are working ramp, throwing bags, fueling airplanes, in the middle of butt-@#$! nowhere...who arent afraid of getting dirty and dont think they are above their job just because of the school they trained at.

Airtids, get your information right...or dont say it at all. You have a bid misconception about Selkirk and I feel that you are down-playing the school to your advantage.

G

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:51 pm

540,

I'm not exactly sure you really know what (or whom) you are talking about

. Nearest I can tell, you've been in this industry for what, three years

, working a ramp for at least part of that (good on ya, by the way). What's your experience? Who the hell do you think you are to judge another pilots stick and rudder skills with that kind of resume.

Worry about yourself before using your vast knowledge to criticise others. All my instructors have spent at least a season flying operationally in all kinds of weather out here, and do every flight that is requested of them unless I (That's right, me. Maybe you have a problem with the personal limits I have set for my company? Hop into my shoes, lets see you do it better!) dictate otherwise. This is before they even start instructing. How many schools do you know of that do that? The only one who ever refused work here, no longer works here, and never held an instructor rating, so maybe YOU should get YOUR facts straight. On the occasion that a pilot gets hired with less than a desireable level of skill, they are given additional training to get them up to speed. Be careful who you are talking about, lest you prove Cat Driver right

Feel free to PM me if you feel you have personal knowledge about one of my staff that I don't. Otherwise, it would seem that the right thing to do here is apologise for criticising things and people you know nothing about. Some anonymous forum troll doesn't have the right to trash-talk one of my hard working and (I stand by my assessment) highly skilled employees.

As for the comment about an elitist attitude, that was not directed specifically at Selkirk grads (although you are making an excellent case for their inclusion), but rather an unfortunate opinion about college grads in general that has developed as a result of a few, but has come to taint the entire group. You haven't been around for terribly long if you want to try and argue that the stereotype doesn't exist. It is shared by more folks than myself (college grads included like Stu), and yet I even hire them. Read the post properly before you start criticising the words YOU put in MY mouth.

This thread is not about me and any problem I have with A college program. I don't have a bad misconception about Selkirk, I have a bad opinion of ALL College Programs in this day and age. I feel they are charging too much for what they do to get your career underway. Stu (one of your classmates??)specified Selkirk, and I have more experience with that particular program than any, so naturally it became a focal point, but I have been very careful to generalise, and also to point out that as far as college programs go, Selkirk's is indeed excellent. He questioned (with a bit of a dig, but it's OK, I can take it

)my ability to compete with their program, and I explained why we don't need to. This thread is about why people believe that the college route is still the way to go given the current difficulty in obtaining initial employment. If the consensus is "because I met great friends" and "it was the best friggin year of my life" (to paraphrase you!!) and "it will help down the road" and "I needed a little extra supervision/structure", then fine. When your goal is to get a job however, again I ask, 'Why don't you train where you will work?' Sorry you got your panties in a knot and pressed the submit button before you thought things through.

LastSamurai · Post by **LastSamurai** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:34 am

Alright, my post was a bit hasty, but I am still sticking to what I said.

As for elitist attitudes...better re-read your post cuz they are drooling with them

I completely agree with you however, a college will do nothing to get you started. It is aimed at your career further down the line...nothing wrong with that. As for train where you work

a lot of places (charters) dont operate flight schools so the only way to get into those companies is to work ramp or other positions before getting on the flight line. Other than training at a school and then doing an instructor rating...which other school hires you right from finishing your ratings

If you know, please let the aviation industry know

But please dont say that college grads are above their work...this just is NOT the case

G

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:35 am

The only benefit that you have shown for going to a club, and arguably so, (you will never convice me that the costs are that much cheaper) is the financial one. I will throw in that it takes less time as well.

That is a very narrow minded view in my opinion. College provides you with:

-Greater networking abilities (I talk with selkirk grads as far back as the 70s for job info)
-More experienced instructors
-Free unlimited sims at some
-More advanced equipment at the larger colleges (how many clubs have BE20 sims, DC-9 sims, etc)
-University transfer credits
-More indepth groundschool
-Access to Canada Student Loan program (do clubs have this? I am honestly not sure if you can qualify for this to go to a club)
-Better recognition at the airlines and at some small operators

There are more. If you want to spend (arguably) less money, and less time in pursuit of your licences, then by all means go to a club. You want more of a life experience, and the adventures that going to a post-secondary institution provide, and all the above things I have mentioned, go to college.

Again, we may as well just agree to disagree, because you and I will never see eye to eye on this.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:52 am

We should examine the bottom line.

Regardless of the airplane the most important skill a pilot needs is how to fly it.

Two things are needed to be a good pilot aircraft handling wise.

(1) A natural talent to learn the skill.

(2) An instructor who knows how to fly and how to teach. These teachers can be found at both colleges and FTU's.

The rest is a bonus.

Cat

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:11 pm

Well, a new day, and things have changed.

540, I know who you are (how many of your classmates do you think speak French and flew Centennial and NAMAO's a/c?) and I must say I'm disappointed

. I'm sure you could care less which means that at least we agree on one thing. I do have to congratulate you, however, on having the brains to see your mistake, and the courage to do the right thing about it and apologise (sort of...

)both here and in a PM. Perhaps English should be a few more credits because your reading comprehension (about my feelings of college grads working hard) and vocabulary skills (better look up elitism before accusing me of that trait) could use some work.
I understand what got you all riled up, so I had my wife (my biggest critic by far

) read this today, and she agrees that NOWHERE did I infer that this was MY opinion, merely that the stereotype exists. Even beyond that, I made a point of showing that I DO HIRE College grads, and my experience in that department has been excellent.
Finally, you've got my concept backwards. When I say 'Train where you will work', what I mean is choose to spend your flight training dollars at a location where you at least have a chance to get hired. Of course, I know that CMA (for example) doesn't have a flight school. That's not what I'm driving at. There are MANY schools who will hire their CPL into a dispatch, or ramp, if not a flight position. I will reply to you and discuss a few issues that are better suited to a PM.

Stu, finally we're getting to what I'm looking for in this thread!! Your comments about 'WHY the college' address directly my query here. I will agree that a core of alumni thirty years deep must have it's benefits, for a few grads, anyhow (540's disparaging remarks about one of his own, however, leave me shaking my head). Remember, though, that the FBO sees plenty of itinerant pilots rolling through from all aspects of the industry who are always happy to share their knowledge and insight as well. The equipment is indeed generally more advanced (a result of the higher cost). Transfer credits, and deeper level of knowledge are givens- this is why it takes two years to complete the program. As to your comments about experienced instructors; as has been pointed out, quality (high and low) instructors can be found everywhere. Student loan money is available at ANY accredited post-secondary education institution.
I never came in here to get people to agree with me, merely to discuss the issue without getting personal. So much for that. Must've forgotten I was at Avcanada.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:21 pm

I am going to start two - no, make it three - year college programs to teach people:

1) how to drive transport trucks
2) how to operate cranes
3) how to drive bulldozers

We're heavy equipment operators, for god's sake, that pay union dues.

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:49 pm

airtids - just curious exactly what you mean by ANY post secondary institution? I know that the banks dont readily accept flight schools for student lines of credit. You have to apply for an exemption and hope for a nice banker to help you out. There are, or at least were, flight schools in Ontario anyway that qualify for govt loans. I dont think the bank line of credits are easy to get for private colleges either.

On a separate note, I've pm'd you and emailed your company a couple times in the past year, most recently in august or september, and havent heard back. Its possible it never went thru so I'm curious if either got to you. thanks

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:36 pm

airtids,

Didn't realize I had made it personal. Or anyone had. If disagreeing with you is personal, then we may as well end this discussion. Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.

Lastly, are you sure that you qualify for the "Canada Student Loans" program at an FBO or club? Don't confuse that with a student loan from a bank. Interest rates are different, repayment plans are different, interest relief periods are different, and most importantly, intrest earned on the loan is tax deductable.

And I'd be interested to hear of all these companies that hire the pilots that trained in their school division to work the ramp on their charter side. I can't think of any. In fact the ratio of pilots trained to jobs available at that school is probably pretty high. I am sure the chances of you getting a job where you trained are about the same as getting a job anywhere.

Anyone who got a job this way, please fill me in.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:41 pm

Allow me to add a major advantage to learning to fly at a Club: Networking.

I'm sorry to say that you get very little chance to network when you're in college. But while you're at a Club, you get to meet people who come in the door, offer opportunities, go out to wherever you want, whenever you want and meet employers...

I have friends who have gone through both the Club route and the College route, and the ones throught the club route are the ones flying, compared to the college grads loading planes and flipping burgers.

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:01 am

Cat Driver wrote:We should examine the bottom line.

Regardless of the airplane the most important skill a pilot needs is how to fly it.

Two things are needed to be a good pilot aircraft handling wise.

(1) A natural talent to learn the skill.

(2) An instructor who knows how to fly and how to teach. These teachers can be found at both colleges and FTU's.

The rest is a bonus.

Cat

Right on Cat, so far that's the best post on the subject. I'm a college grad, and I'd have to say the posts about the college route taking longer and being more expensive are incorrect in my case. It took me about a year and 8 months and I did so at a very inexpensive price. And to those who think you can't network, well, all but one of my jobs have been thanks to contacts obtained through college.

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:46 am

Right Seat Captain wrote:Allow me to add a major advantage to learning to fly at a Club: Networking.

I'm sorry to say that you get very little chance to network when you're in college. But while you're at a Club, you get to meet people who come in the door, offer opportunities, go out to wherever you want, whenever you want and meet employers...

I have friends who have gone through both the Club route and the College route, and the ones throught the club route are the ones flying, compared to the college grads loading planes and flipping burgers.

BS

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:15 pm

scubasteve,

My appologies. I have just read your message, and will reply to the e-ddress supplied. If it is no longer active, let me know.
For both you and Stu, ALL post-secondary institutions have to be registered here in B.C. (and in every other province with a similar body, as far as I know) with PPSEC http://www.ppsec.bc.ca in order to do business. If the school is ACCREDITED, their students are then able to qualify for student loans programs both federally, and provincially, just like any college. That college ALSO has to be accredited with PPSEC, but by virtue of the ability to grant diplomas (the gov't has already assessed thier program), the qualifications for accreditation are automatically met for the college. We all go through the same process. There is nothing special about a college in the eyes of PPSEC.

STU,

Heaven forbid anyone disagree with you. Should make for some interesting CRM. RSC posted his/her observations, but you don't like them so i guess it must be BS.

See my notes above re: Student Loans.

Now, which flight school hires from their grads onto the ramp? Starting from the West: Juan Air, Vic. Flying Club, Pro IFR, Pacific Flying Club, Southern Skies Aviation, Air-Hart, Carson Air, High Alpine Air, Sharp Wings, Morgan Air, Calgary Flying Club, Perimeter..., should I go on, or do you understand that doing YOUR research is not MY job. EVERYONE would rather hire their own before outsiders. Where do you think these operations get their pilots from? Do you think that they're training a bunch of pilots, learning all about these people along the way, and then cutting them loose only to hire wildcards they know nothing about? Additionally, I happen to believe that if someone sees fit to spend their flight training dollars with me, thereby investing in my company, I have an OBLIGATION to try and return the favor by giving them the first crack at any employment that comes up. The owner of any 406/702/703/704 operation will feel the same. Has this never occurred to you? Did this not occur to you when you chose where to train? Why not? You are correct in your assumptions that there are always more grads than jobs. Not every student is right for the job, and not every student WANTS the job that is available. The company hires the best one(s) for the position(s), the rest join the pool of pilots looking elsewhere, but at least they had a SHOT at those jobs, that the student who trained elsewhere (like a College) didn't. GET IT?

Didn't realize I had made it personal. Or anyone had. If disagreeing with you is personal, then we may as well end this discussion. Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.

Everything was nice and civilised until:

I notice you are in YCG? Having a hard time competing with Selkirk?

You'll have to do better than that to hurt my feelings. It would be nice, however, if you could accept some responsibilty for this nice, generic discussion about Flight Schools (in GENERAL) and College Programs (IN GENERAL) disintegrating the way it has. You seem very sensitive about the prospect that a student from a "lowly" FBO has every opportunity awaiting them that you do. Too bad.

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:11 am

Get over yourself.

Seriously.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:03 am

Stu,

Get over yourself.

Seriously.

Once again, things don't go as you want, so you get personal. How very mature. Good luck.

LastSamurai · Post by **LastSamurai** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:32 pm

Now, which flight school hires from their grads onto the ramp? Starting from the West: Juan Air, Vic. Flying Club, Pro IFR, Pacific Flying Club, Southern Skies Aviation, Air-Hart, Carson Air, High Alpine Air, Sharp Wings, Morgan Air, Calgary Flying Club, Perimeter..., should I go on, or do you understand that doing YOUR research is not MY job.

Sure you could try getting on working the ramp or other duties...but your going to probably wait a couple of years for a flying position due to all the students wanting jobs with those outfits (generally speaking).

So how does that put you ahead...it doesnt

. So you can do your training at a "lowly FBO" and then pray to get on the ramp...do 2 years on the ramp and therefore be flying about 3-4 years later. Or again, go to a college, do the 2 year program, get hired on the ramp with ANY company (even some that "only hire their own students"--yes, it happends) work for no more than a year and therefore be flying in 2.5-3 years.

If knowledge learned is the only big difference between the two routes (college vs. FBO)...well, going to have to side on the college direction.

G

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:02 pm

O.K. :

Help me out here.

Lets suppose I own a float palne charter company and am looking for a pilot.

What special knowledge would a college graduate have that would put him / her above a graduate from lets say Air Hart, or one of the other schools??

Cat