How long til the Kids are flying at Jazz?
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YWG gearcleaner
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Dark Helmet
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Hey RB211
I have asked this in another forum before. Only one person made an atempt to answer.
1. Why does BA or any other european carrier hire low time pilots. It is because. (a) there are no higher time pilots available. Or (b) there are higher time pilot around, but they are unwilling to work at BA.
2. What does a new hire at BA make, how about after 2, 3, 4, 5 years. can they live on that?
3. Is it normal for a BA newhires to quit after six months and go work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Cathay, etc.
4. Would you consider working for Ryanair, Why or Why not
Indeed they are................not because of a shortage though. If so, care to explain why Jazz is the only airline on Canada to do this.
Fact is. As much as you claim to know about Canadian aviation and its colleges. You dont work here. It is pretty easy to be sitting at BA and preach to us. If you worked here, you would be beating a different tune.
It is pretty clear that you will probably not convince many of us to see your point of view much like we are not going to convince you to see ours. You guys drive on the left, we drive on the right. Who cares which one is better as long as it works. Hiring low time guys works for BA, it will likely not wokrk for Jazz. Just look south of the border at the US regionals.
Nevertheless, what is done is done. Jazz has hired them and we will all find out soon enough. To argue about this any further is pointless.
Cheerios mate
DH.
I have asked this in another forum before. Only one person made an atempt to answer.
1. Why does BA or any other european carrier hire low time pilots. It is because. (a) there are no higher time pilots available. Or (b) there are higher time pilot around, but they are unwilling to work at BA.
2. What does a new hire at BA make, how about after 2, 3, 4, 5 years. can they live on that?
3. Is it normal for a BA newhires to quit after six months and go work for Lufthansa, Air France, KLM, Cathay, etc.
4. Would you consider working for Ryanair, Why or Why not
Ever since emerging from CCAA. Jazz has not IMO struggle to make a profit. We often hear in our newsletters how Jazz is getting record load factors and profits, etc..... Ironically, this program may cost Jazz more money in training in many different levels if it backfires. I am not only talking about extra training for the college grads either.An airline that struggles to make a healthy operating profit year in and year out wants to make money. That is a new concept! This is a privately owned operation who has to answer to only one group of people. These are their SHAREHOLDERS
Respectfully. I don't know that, you don't know that. No one really knows that for sure. But we will find out. BTW many pilots at Jazz have the same education that these college grads have + their many years of experience.Maybe some of these kids could fly circles around you apples and oranges types.
Good luck to the young lads/ladies going to work for Jazz. You have done well to make your achievements thus far and will need to continue to work hard to succeed. Don’t let bitter, twisted and ignorant people ruin your experience and it will only be a matter of time before even the biggest critics of this plan see, you are there for a very good reason
Indeed they are................not because of a shortage though. If so, care to explain why Jazz is the only airline on Canada to do this.
Fact is. As much as you claim to know about Canadian aviation and its colleges. You dont work here. It is pretty easy to be sitting at BA and preach to us. If you worked here, you would be beating a different tune.
It is pretty clear that you will probably not convince many of us to see your point of view much like we are not going to convince you to see ours. You guys drive on the left, we drive on the right. Who cares which one is better as long as it works. Hiring low time guys works for BA, it will likely not wokrk for Jazz. Just look south of the border at the US regionals.
Nevertheless, what is done is done. Jazz has hired them and we will all find out soon enough. To argue about this any further is pointless.
Cheerios mate
DH.
Helmut,
Ok I will do my best on this. First your questions.
1) BA and other European carriers (plus many in Asia/Middle East) hire low time pilots due to various reasons. In the latter of the above example it may be a lack of qualified people. In the case of BA/Lufthansa/KLM/Air France etc it is due to years of experience of doing so. The simple answer is that it works for them. People that are pre selected, well trained and free of ’Bad habits’ and the associated attitudes that come with them. I can assure you that the flag carriers of Europe have thousands of experienced applicants wanting in the door. I have been told we interview less than 10% of those who apply and take less than 25% of them. We took 300ish last year. (Ex RAF guys could be the exception to the rule). Not all pilots we hire have 250 hours. Some have min time, some much more.
2) New hire at BA makes the follows. A 250 hour pilot would make 80-100K CAD a year all in depending on fleet/base etc. An experienced pilot joining BA would make 120-140 CAD in year one. The low time pilot would move to the same pay scale as the experienced guy around year 5 if I am correct. Basically a year 7 FO is an year 7 FO no matter where you started. The pay goes up about 8K (CAD) a year until year 24 in the company (left seat). Trainers make 25% on top. WE have TRI/TRE's that are FO's and under 30. It is safe to say it is a liveable salary and I used CAD just to give you something to compare it to. The UK is expensive but it is still a very good living. Many of our pilots (including young FO’s) pay very little tax living in France/Spain/Portugal etc and live a very good life.
3) We lose 3-5 pilots a year to other carriers with 3300 pilots. Dead mans shoes.
4) I would work for Ryan Air if required. They work hard, get pushed but are some of the best paid 737 pilots in the world. Skippers in their mid to late 20’s are common. Great experience for direct entry commands world wide on bigger machines. Easyjet similar but much better.
My comment about making money was aimed at the mother ship. Jazz from what I hear is a profitable operation but the last time I checked it is still owned by the parent company? Profits are group wide. AC has already gone cheap with their FO’s, why not do it at Jazz? It is the same thing is it not?
I made the comment about the low hour guys being good pilots. Most of them probably will be given a bit of time and the benefit of the doubt. They were hand picked from good training grounds. I agree many current Jazz guys have similar back grounds etc, but times have changed. AC took guys from these colleges 30 years ago.
Jazz may be the only airline to officially do this but look around bud. Tens if not hundreds of operators in Canada hire low time pilots. It is no different. Explain to me why it is. I would assume that if it works for Jazz, others may follow suit. As mentioned above, AC has done it in the past.
I am not sitting over here trying to convince anyone of F$%! all. Contrary to what you believe my back ground in aviation is Canadian along with many others who have come this way. I was trained both academically and aviation related in Canada to a solid standard. I spent the first difficult yet enjoyable years of my flying career in the bush so that puts an end to that. To be honest my experience back home makes me appreciate what I have now even more.
Do yourself, your colleagues, your company and the young boys/girls a chance mate. Canadian aviation is no different than any other contrary to peoples beliefs. They can and will do a good job and quite frankly they could use the support along the way. It may just make the industry better back home better for everyone, including yourself. That is the name of the game is it not?
Hope that clears it up a little.
Cheerio (Cheerios are for breakfast)
Ok I will do my best on this. First your questions.
1) BA and other European carriers (plus many in Asia/Middle East) hire low time pilots due to various reasons. In the latter of the above example it may be a lack of qualified people. In the case of BA/Lufthansa/KLM/Air France etc it is due to years of experience of doing so. The simple answer is that it works for them. People that are pre selected, well trained and free of ’Bad habits’ and the associated attitudes that come with them. I can assure you that the flag carriers of Europe have thousands of experienced applicants wanting in the door. I have been told we interview less than 10% of those who apply and take less than 25% of them. We took 300ish last year. (Ex RAF guys could be the exception to the rule). Not all pilots we hire have 250 hours. Some have min time, some much more.
2) New hire at BA makes the follows. A 250 hour pilot would make 80-100K CAD a year all in depending on fleet/base etc. An experienced pilot joining BA would make 120-140 CAD in year one. The low time pilot would move to the same pay scale as the experienced guy around year 5 if I am correct. Basically a year 7 FO is an year 7 FO no matter where you started. The pay goes up about 8K (CAD) a year until year 24 in the company (left seat). Trainers make 25% on top. WE have TRI/TRE's that are FO's and under 30. It is safe to say it is a liveable salary and I used CAD just to give you something to compare it to. The UK is expensive but it is still a very good living. Many of our pilots (including young FO’s) pay very little tax living in France/Spain/Portugal etc and live a very good life.
3) We lose 3-5 pilots a year to other carriers with 3300 pilots. Dead mans shoes.
4) I would work for Ryan Air if required. They work hard, get pushed but are some of the best paid 737 pilots in the world. Skippers in their mid to late 20’s are common. Great experience for direct entry commands world wide on bigger machines. Easyjet similar but much better.
My comment about making money was aimed at the mother ship. Jazz from what I hear is a profitable operation but the last time I checked it is still owned by the parent company? Profits are group wide. AC has already gone cheap with their FO’s, why not do it at Jazz? It is the same thing is it not?
I made the comment about the low hour guys being good pilots. Most of them probably will be given a bit of time and the benefit of the doubt. They were hand picked from good training grounds. I agree many current Jazz guys have similar back grounds etc, but times have changed. AC took guys from these colleges 30 years ago.
Jazz may be the only airline to officially do this but look around bud. Tens if not hundreds of operators in Canada hire low time pilots. It is no different. Explain to me why it is. I would assume that if it works for Jazz, others may follow suit. As mentioned above, AC has done it in the past.
I am not sitting over here trying to convince anyone of F$%! all. Contrary to what you believe my back ground in aviation is Canadian along with many others who have come this way. I was trained both academically and aviation related in Canada to a solid standard. I spent the first difficult yet enjoyable years of my flying career in the bush so that puts an end to that. To be honest my experience back home makes me appreciate what I have now even more.
Do yourself, your colleagues, your company and the young boys/girls a chance mate. Canadian aviation is no different than any other contrary to peoples beliefs. They can and will do a good job and quite frankly they could use the support along the way. It may just make the industry better back home better for everyone, including yourself. That is the name of the game is it not?
Hope that clears it up a little.
Cheerio (Cheerios are for breakfast)
I beg to differ .. Canadian Aviation is different .. We believe that you should earn your place in the airlines. By sluggin' a bag or two, by working a dock, by filling a plane with chips and pop .. by experience. Not just a piece of paper from a school that says you can do what they say you can do?! (they "schools" don't even know a quarter of what happens in the "real world" themselves) How are we suppose to just "accept" what they say?! Bullshit I say.
I agree with Helmut ..
I agree with Helmut ..
well was offered jobs at 200 hours by companies like Perimeter, Tindi etc. and just like the 250 hour grads from colleges, it wasn't to see the inside of a plane any time soon. And when the CAF lets you enter flight training at an "advanced stage" it means you get to skip primary flight training on there small piston aircraft which is basically equal to redoing your CPL from how it was explained to me by the airforce recruiter. so its not much of a jump, they still go through Basic flight training where you learn the military skills for flying (aerobatics, formations, etc.) on the Havard II and then advanced, on the Hawk, then operational on the CF18 (this is of course only for the fighter pilots it branches off at advanced for helo, and transport pilots)
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Dark Helmet
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Okay RB. By answering my questions, you just confirmed the apples and orange theory.
Here is my answers from Jazz
1) Jazz is hiring low time pilots because they can not find any if few qualified pilots. You say BA has 1000s of applicants of file. Jazz has about 50 as quoted from one of our chief pilots. That is right 50. Again not because of a shortage of pilots. This shortage is company induced. Out of the applicants you look at, you mentioned 10% and 25% out of that. Again, the percentaeges are much higher at Jazz. From what I am told, these college grads we hired are not even the best ones. As some of the top ones actually turned dowm the offer from Jazz.
2) At Jazz starting pay is 35K a year. Not enoug to make a living in YYZ, YYC or YVR, doable in YUL. That is fine as it is only fo the first year and is comparable with AC, and WJ first year salar. Third year at AC you would be looking at 85K, depending on equip. WJ about the same maybe more.(still no where close to waht BA is) At Jazz, an FO you would never see 85K. About 65K or so after 13 years. Managers are making a killing with their stock options and Labours are getting CCAA wages.
3) Jazz is loosing pilots up the wazuuu. (feel free to correct on the spelling here, Good job with the "cheerio" BTW
learn something new everyday). About 10 maybe more a month. To WJ, AC, Cathay, AT, Sunwing, etc. I guess with the low payscale and long upgrade, does not give one much incentive to stay. Sad too because it si actually a good place to work, pay aside.
4) Maybe ryan is not as bad of a place as I though it was.
There is a perception that a low time pilot will not quit after 6 months because, they don't have enough experience to be hired by other airlines. That is not to say that they will be happy at Jazz. I have flown with 200 hours pilots at my old company who were happy when they started, but were bitter after a year because they wanted to be at AC, or make more money blahblahblah.
AC has done it in the past. Why are they not doing it today?
Fair enough, you have a Canadian background. Like I said, it is easy for you to preach from BA. Where by the sounds of it you get treated well. A pilot a profesional over there. Here is always the race to the bottom mentality. Which hurts everyone in the end.
I am all for helping these guys out. They will get no animosity from me I can assure you. It is not their fault. This does not mean I have to like it.
I doubt this will make the industry better though. If it did and if there was a valid reason to hire these grads. I along with the rest of us bitter and twisted skeptics would not be making a big deal about this. Lets hope you are right and I am wrong.
Who knows maybe in a few years some of these grads might be sitting next to you at BA. Hence why I think this program will not work. Like I said, We all find out soon enough. I am done here.
I will try to get it right this time....... Cheerio mate.
"Helmut"
Here is my answers from Jazz
1) Jazz is hiring low time pilots because they can not find any if few qualified pilots. You say BA has 1000s of applicants of file. Jazz has about 50 as quoted from one of our chief pilots. That is right 50. Again not because of a shortage of pilots. This shortage is company induced. Out of the applicants you look at, you mentioned 10% and 25% out of that. Again, the percentaeges are much higher at Jazz. From what I am told, these college grads we hired are not even the best ones. As some of the top ones actually turned dowm the offer from Jazz.
2) At Jazz starting pay is 35K a year. Not enoug to make a living in YYZ, YYC or YVR, doable in YUL. That is fine as it is only fo the first year and is comparable with AC, and WJ first year salar. Third year at AC you would be looking at 85K, depending on equip. WJ about the same maybe more.(still no where close to waht BA is) At Jazz, an FO you would never see 85K. About 65K or so after 13 years. Managers are making a killing with their stock options and Labours are getting CCAA wages.
3) Jazz is loosing pilots up the wazuuu. (feel free to correct on the spelling here, Good job with the "cheerio" BTW
learn something new everyday). About 10 maybe more a month. To WJ, AC, Cathay, AT, Sunwing, etc. I guess with the low payscale and long upgrade, does not give one much incentive to stay. Sad too because it si actually a good place to work, pay aside. 4) Maybe ryan is not as bad of a place as I though it was.
There is a perception that a low time pilot will not quit after 6 months because, they don't have enough experience to be hired by other airlines. That is not to say that they will be happy at Jazz. I have flown with 200 hours pilots at my old company who were happy when they started, but were bitter after a year because they wanted to be at AC, or make more money blahblahblah.
AC has done it in the past. Why are they not doing it today?
Fair enough, you have a Canadian background. Like I said, it is easy for you to preach from BA. Where by the sounds of it you get treated well. A pilot a profesional over there. Here is always the race to the bottom mentality. Which hurts everyone in the end.
I am all for helping these guys out. They will get no animosity from me I can assure you. It is not their fault. This does not mean I have to like it.
I doubt this will make the industry better though. If it did and if there was a valid reason to hire these grads. I along with the rest of us bitter and twisted skeptics would not be making a big deal about this. Lets hope you are right and I am wrong.
Who knows maybe in a few years some of these grads might be sitting next to you at BA. Hence why I think this program will not work. Like I said, We all find out soon enough. I am done here.
I will try to get it right this time....... Cheerio mate.
"Helmut"
Last edited by Dark Helmet on Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stick-Shaker
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Yes, but they sat sideways for years before touching the controls. Not getting a 9 day "bridging course"RB-211 wrote:I made the comment about the low hour guys being good pilots. Most of them probably will be given a bit of time and the benefit of the doubt. They were hand picked from good training grounds. I agree many current Jazz guys have similar back grounds etc, but times have changed. AC took guys from these colleges 30 years ago.)
Helmut,
Not to keep this burning but I am still confused. Ok Jazz has 50 resumes in file for arguments sake. I personally think this is a load of doo doo. College grads are turning down Jazz for what? Anyone who gets offered a job out of school in Canada with the national regional carrier would be AN IDIOT to turn it down. Where are the top students going then???
I started flying not long ago on far less than 35K a year and flying a piece of shite. That does not wash either.
Jazz is losing pilots because the music is playing and SOME people are looking for a better seat before its stops. This causes big probs for Jazz and they need to put bums in seats. Funny thing is that if things continue to go for a dump in the US, the job market will go bye bye and layoffs could be in the cards. In fact I think the guy with his hand on the ‘Music Off Button’ is not far from pushing it.
So if Jazz is having trouble getting pilots to apply then they go to good schools to get FO’s. Makes senses does it not? Or do they just park their planes. I am still confused about your argument and that of others. Either way its happening and that is that. AC has done it in the past and could easily do it in the future. CP guys who did it went FO on the 737 at the same time so the ‘They did not touch the controls’ BS is in fact BS.
I think what you are saying is that the airline has brought this on themselves and I can't really comment on that. I wish you and your fellow pilots at Jazz good luck in coming contract talks, and hope that you and the AC guys can sort out a mess which is clearly helping nobody but ACE.
Good luck
Not to keep this burning but I am still confused. Ok Jazz has 50 resumes in file for arguments sake. I personally think this is a load of doo doo. College grads are turning down Jazz for what? Anyone who gets offered a job out of school in Canada with the national regional carrier would be AN IDIOT to turn it down. Where are the top students going then???
I started flying not long ago on far less than 35K a year and flying a piece of shite. That does not wash either.
Jazz is losing pilots because the music is playing and SOME people are looking for a better seat before its stops. This causes big probs for Jazz and they need to put bums in seats. Funny thing is that if things continue to go for a dump in the US, the job market will go bye bye and layoffs could be in the cards. In fact I think the guy with his hand on the ‘Music Off Button’ is not far from pushing it.
So if Jazz is having trouble getting pilots to apply then they go to good schools to get FO’s. Makes senses does it not? Or do they just park their planes. I am still confused about your argument and that of others. Either way its happening and that is that. AC has done it in the past and could easily do it in the future. CP guys who did it went FO on the 737 at the same time so the ‘They did not touch the controls’ BS is in fact BS.
I think what you are saying is that the airline has brought this on themselves and I can't really comment on that. I wish you and your fellow pilots at Jazz good luck in coming contract talks, and hope that you and the AC guys can sort out a mess which is clearly helping nobody but ACE.
Good luck
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TyrellCorp
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No shit, one question gets turned into a huge penis fight. @#$!Four1oh wrote:@#$! me, I just wanted to know when they'll be online!
Guess what guys, BA is gay, KLM is gay, Richard Simmons is gay.
Jazz sucks ass, Pay sucks, but I do work here and love the folks I work with so it makes it worth it.
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Stick-Shaker
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Jaques Strappe
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Just as there are differences in Airlines, there are some differences between the colleges and Cadet programs too.
The last time I checked, which was quite awhile ago, the BA cadet program was using some relatively high performance turbine equipment for their training. Not happening here. Not that it is the be all and end all but it is an indicator to me.
In the early 90s' Transport was selling off its' fleet of King Airs and what does Seneca do? they pay three times the price per hull for a Baron. Too bad. Would have been nice for the graduates to come out with a King Air type rating on their licence and some turbine time.
RB 211 is correct about taking someone from nothing and making them an airline pilot. It can be done, has been done, is done and will continue to be done. He is basically saying if it can be done elsewhere, why not Canada? I can see his point.
The one big difference I see is that in Europe it is taken a bit more seriously. Here we are skeptical about the companies motives. The European Cadet programs have many years of putting candidates directly into flight decks and has had the benefit of feedback and evolution over many years. Canadian Colleges have not. This should not be confused with the American type ads where you can go from "Zero to Hero for a mere 100K" which is what I worry will happen here due to this move by Jazz.
The last time I checked, which was quite awhile ago, the BA cadet program was using some relatively high performance turbine equipment for their training. Not happening here. Not that it is the be all and end all but it is an indicator to me.
In the early 90s' Transport was selling off its' fleet of King Airs and what does Seneca do? they pay three times the price per hull for a Baron. Too bad. Would have been nice for the graduates to come out with a King Air type rating on their licence and some turbine time.
RB 211 is correct about taking someone from nothing and making them an airline pilot. It can be done, has been done, is done and will continue to be done. He is basically saying if it can be done elsewhere, why not Canada? I can see his point.
The one big difference I see is that in Europe it is taken a bit more seriously. Here we are skeptical about the companies motives. The European Cadet programs have many years of putting candidates directly into flight decks and has had the benefit of feedback and evolution over many years. Canadian Colleges have not. This should not be confused with the American type ads where you can go from "Zero to Hero for a mere 100K" which is what I worry will happen here due to this move by Jazz.
Standby for new atis message
Don't worry about safety guys. Jazz will put out a memo reminding us to be safe this year. From Baron's to RJs is not a big step as long as you have read the memo that says "be safe".
I wonder if the managers that are implementing this will be held criminally liable when Jazz has an accident and the lawyers find out that a 300 hour college grad with Baron time was flying?
I wonder if the managers that are implementing this will be held criminally liable when Jazz has an accident and the lawyers find out that a 300 hour college grad with Baron time was flying?
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JazzJetDriver
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Traf et al, if I were you I'd put a sock in it.
Agree or disagree with the college program at Jazz, I do not think you should be spouting off in this public forum against the company that puts food on your table, your cause is not being helped with such immature behaviour. Simply said, "Jazz is a great place to work."
The college grads. had to work hard to get where they are today and they should be given our full and collective support, the same way I hope it was for you when you embarked on your flying career. This type of bashing is unproductive.
As a somewhat senior Jazz pilot, I look forward to working with and imparting any knowledge that may help make their Jazz experience a rewarding one.
Agree or disagree with the college program at Jazz, I do not think you should be spouting off in this public forum against the company that puts food on your table, your cause is not being helped with such immature behaviour. Simply said, "Jazz is a great place to work."
The college grads. had to work hard to get where they are today and they should be given our full and collective support, the same way I hope it was for you when you embarked on your flying career. This type of bashing is unproductive.
As a somewhat senior Jazz pilot, I look forward to working with and imparting any knowledge that may help make their Jazz experience a rewarding one.
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superiorwhore
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Well I say that you should have to fly with them all than, do there line indoc and than once you have finished lets see if your all perky and cheery about it.
Yeah they sure did work hard, those hours of night single ifr down to mins must have really stressed them out.
I do feel sorry for everyone that has to fly with these kids though. I'm happy I don't have to.
Yeah they sure did work hard, those hours of night single ifr down to mins must have really stressed them out.
I do feel sorry for everyone that has to fly with these kids though. I'm happy I don't have to.
Self respect for sale.
You can have all the "billy" you want. Yes they are keen, book smart, and I'm sure they will be able to teach you the SOP's/COM, but are going to be a handful when in anything but clear sky's/calm winds, especially in the RJ. Have fun. I just hope there isn't another hull loss or worse.JazzJetDriver wrote:Traf et al, if I were you I'd put a sock in it.
Agree or disagree with the college program at Jazz, I do not think you should be spouting off in this public forum against the company that puts food on your table, your cause is not being helped with such immature behaviour. Simply said, "Jazz is a great place to work."
The college grads. had to work hard to get where they are today and they should be given our full and collective support, the same way I hope it was for you when you embarked on your flying career. This type of bashing is unproductive.
As a somewhat senior Jazz pilot, I look forward to working with and imparting any knowledge that may help make their Jazz experience a rewarding one.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
I know one that turned it down. Going to jazz isn't the mecca of Canadian Aviation. If you want to go to AC it's probably a short term victory but a long term loss for the grads. The first into a 705 aircraft, gloat for 4 years as your buddies slog it out. Year 5 your buddies start to get hired onto AC with all these great stories of flying they've done. You're still on the same type you started on and don't have a whole lot of life experience or great stories.RB-211 wrote:Helmut,
Not to keep this burning but I am still confused. Ok Jazz has 50 resumes in file for arguments sake. I personally think this is a load of doo doo. College grads are turning down Jazz for what? Anyone who gets offered a job out of school in Canada with the national regional carrier would be AN IDIOT to turn it down. Where are the top students going then???
It's not such a clear cut decision. When I was initially told I responded exactly as you did, and tried to convince him to go. Now that I've had some time to think about it I'm more and more sure that he made the right move.
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Jaques Strappe
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TyrellCorp
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