There are a number of different opinions on another thread about what pilots select "on" when flying light to medium airplanes.
If you select all the lights on and pitot heat on so they will be on if you need them, why not also select your anti / De-icing equipment also.
The way I see it is if you fly into icing conditions and are unable to understand what will happen or are to bored to notice would it not be safer to have wing and prop anti icing on than pitot heat?
Maybe I was taught wrong but we used a check list that had these items " As required " and if the weather was hot and sunny we did not use these items ( Pitot heat for instance )
A question about use of lights etc.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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A question about use of lights etc.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
The Beech 350 checklist from both Beechcraft and Flight Safety have "L and R pitot - ON" in the before takeoff checklist. There is also "L Pitot Heat" and "R Pitot Heat" caution annunciators, which extinguish when the you turn the left and right pitot on. Clearly, the plane was designed for these switches to be on in flight.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Fair enough Go Guns, if that is what Beechcraft has in their Operating requirements that answers the question for that airplane type.
However I was sitting in a Twin Otter in Vancouver some years ago and watched the pilots turn on every electrical switch in the airplane including landing lights and pitot heat while they still had the parking brakes on at the gate.
When we got to Nanaimo I was chatting with the FO and asked him why they loaded the electrical system with all that stuff for a short hop to Nanaimo with the sun shining and the OAT about 30 degrees...
...his answer was its our SOP's.
I know that DeHavilland did not put that in the pilot operating manual, so what happened to using common sense in these basic simple airplanes....after all a trip to Nanaimo in a Twin Otter on a hot sunny day is not as complicated as the space shuttle during the re-entry phase of a mission.
However I was sitting in a Twin Otter in Vancouver some years ago and watched the pilots turn on every electrical switch in the airplane including landing lights and pitot heat while they still had the parking brakes on at the gate.
When we got to Nanaimo I was chatting with the FO and asked him why they loaded the electrical system with all that stuff for a short hop to Nanaimo with the sun shining and the OAT about 30 degrees...
...his answer was its our SOP's.
I know that DeHavilland did not put that in the pilot operating manual, so what happened to using common sense in these basic simple airplanes....after all a trip to Nanaimo in a Twin Otter on a hot sunny day is not as complicated as the space shuttle during the re-entry phase of a mission.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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JetPilot123
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I guess we agree to disagree.
Not every aircraft is the same and I am sure that some aircraft it is not required (every light to med turbine i have flown it was required).
It comes down to pilot preference. I just follow SOP's and AFM's.
Not trying to nitpick but if a guy breaks SOP's on pitot heat and other small procedures is he going to break SOP's in an emergency too.
Not every aircraft is the same and I am sure that some aircraft it is not required (every light to med turbine i have flown it was required).
It comes down to pilot preference. I just follow SOP's and AFM's.
Not trying to nitpick but if a guy breaks SOP's on pitot heat and other small procedures is he going to break SOP's in an emergency too.
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'effin hippie
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I have always subscribed to the theory that it never hurts to light up like a Xmas tree. Strobes, recce's etc can make you more visible even in daylight.
(I know, not the Nav lights)
Plus I recall information suggesting that lights during the day could significantly lower the incidence of bird strike. I have no idea how that data was collected.
. I'm sure you'll agree that part of common sense is knowing what you don't have to worry about. I'm assuming that the guy buying the parts is aware of the SOP's, and if the company says turn it all on and we'll just buy more bulbs, then great, that's a little more attention I can devote to other operational issues.
Actually, I was gonna end there, but this brings up something that's been bugging me for a while:
I have noticed, with a few of my coworkers over the years (and I have to say they tend to come from an instructing back ground) a tendency to kinda over analyze every situation, so that for almost every departure and arrival they've chosen to deviate from the standard speeds and configurations, and on every flight switches are in different positions. That's probably fine if you're single pilot, but SOP's are mostly about co-ordinating 2 or more flight crew.
Now I'm not trying to promote blind adherence to procedures that can't possibly fit all circumstances, but one of the main purposes of having a standard is that it makes deviations from the norm more apparent. If a pilot is constantly blurring that norm, I think the risk arising from making it that little bit harder to notice a deviation exceeds any increased safety coming from whatever adjustment to the aircraft to compensate for insignificant operational considerations has been made.
Furthermore, I think this risk is significantly magnified by a multicrew cockpit, when the increased need for communication and monitoring is considered.
I know this sounds kind of nit-picky, but really we all know better than to fly overweight or in a broken airplane, right? It seems that this sort of stuff is what we need to consider when we think about operating safely for thousands and thousands of hours.
For me, I'm not saying never deviate, but I need a pretty big reason to do so. IE - There's a 10 or 15 kt cross wind, I'm not screwing with flap and speeds for the landing, that's still a pretty normal set of circumstances, which can be confidently handled in the normal configuration. 20+ kts, yah, that's definitely unusually strong, and we'll have to adjust the configuration to compensate. (That's just made up numbers and stuff, so please don't shit on the example.)
Anyway, got that off my chest.
ef
(I know, not the Nav lights)
Plus I recall information suggesting that lights during the day could significantly lower the incidence of bird strike. I have no idea how that data was collected.
. I'm sure you'll agree that part of common sense is knowing what you don't have to worry about. I'm assuming that the guy buying the parts is aware of the SOP's, and if the company says turn it all on and we'll just buy more bulbs, then great, that's a little more attention I can devote to other operational issues.
Actually, I was gonna end there, but this brings up something that's been bugging me for a while:
I have noticed, with a few of my coworkers over the years (and I have to say they tend to come from an instructing back ground) a tendency to kinda over analyze every situation, so that for almost every departure and arrival they've chosen to deviate from the standard speeds and configurations, and on every flight switches are in different positions. That's probably fine if you're single pilot, but SOP's are mostly about co-ordinating 2 or more flight crew.
Now I'm not trying to promote blind adherence to procedures that can't possibly fit all circumstances, but one of the main purposes of having a standard is that it makes deviations from the norm more apparent. If a pilot is constantly blurring that norm, I think the risk arising from making it that little bit harder to notice a deviation exceeds any increased safety coming from whatever adjustment to the aircraft to compensate for insignificant operational considerations has been made.
Furthermore, I think this risk is significantly magnified by a multicrew cockpit, when the increased need for communication and monitoring is considered.
I know this sounds kind of nit-picky, but really we all know better than to fly overweight or in a broken airplane, right? It seems that this sort of stuff is what we need to consider when we think about operating safely for thousands and thousands of hours.
For me, I'm not saying never deviate, but I need a pretty big reason to do so. IE - There's a 10 or 15 kt cross wind, I'm not screwing with flap and speeds for the landing, that's still a pretty normal set of circumstances, which can be confidently handled in the normal configuration. 20+ kts, yah, that's definitely unusually strong, and we'll have to adjust the configuration to compensate. (That's just made up numbers and stuff, so please don't shit on the example.)
Anyway, got that off my chest.
ef
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Cat Driver
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Whoops....read the wrong check list!! 
Last edited by Cat Driver on Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Hey, gang it is not my intent to down play the importance of following SOP's nor is it my intent to down play any of your individual flying skills or your thinking processes.
You will note I am posting under my real name so it would be stupid of me to go off on a rant that made no sense.
So lets just go back and read my first post here about the SOP's that the crew of the Twin Otter were following.
My position is to maybe get people to look at SOP's and try and determine the need for a given SOP and if there is enough reason to believe one may be unnecessary or over kill then maybe try and have it ammended or cancelled.
I am thinking from the perspective of a airplane mechanic and the laws of physics which come into play when we do something.
In the case of the T.O that had every electrical item on on a short VFR flight in hot weather it is in my opinion dumb to load up a system and bring in a law of physics governing heat which can only burn extra fuel as it loads up the charging system and produces extra unneeded heat and friction for no logical reason....heat and friction are the enemy of any mechanical device.
So once again all I am doing is trying to get a good discussion going with the intent of getting all of us to examine the why of things and not just shrug our shoulders and accept what ever a SOP ends up being...be it correct and useful...or unnecessary and of no real use safety wise.
Win lose or draw, I did not get to here accident free in going on fifty five years of flying most every device both fixed and rotary wing there is out there by not using good airmanship, check lists and common sense.....if I was that lucky I would go out and buy a pocket full of lottery tickets.
You will note I am posting under my real name so it would be stupid of me to go off on a rant that made no sense.
So lets just go back and read my first post here about the SOP's that the crew of the Twin Otter were following.
My position is to maybe get people to look at SOP's and try and determine the need for a given SOP and if there is enough reason to believe one may be unnecessary or over kill then maybe try and have it ammended or cancelled.
I am thinking from the perspective of a airplane mechanic and the laws of physics which come into play when we do something.
In the case of the T.O that had every electrical item on on a short VFR flight in hot weather it is in my opinion dumb to load up a system and bring in a law of physics governing heat which can only burn extra fuel as it loads up the charging system and produces extra unneeded heat and friction for no logical reason....heat and friction are the enemy of any mechanical device.
So once again all I am doing is trying to get a good discussion going with the intent of getting all of us to examine the why of things and not just shrug our shoulders and accept what ever a SOP ends up being...be it correct and useful...or unnecessary and of no real use safety wise.
Win lose or draw, I did not get to here accident free in going on fifty five years of flying most every device both fixed and rotary wing there is out there by not using good airmanship, check lists and common sense.....if I was that lucky I would go out and buy a pocket full of lottery tickets.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
., I have to agree with a lot of what you have said. What is needed is for the training people and or the writer of the SOP's to sit down to analyze why do such things. If there is a specific reason for a procedure, maybe it will make sense. We used to turn the nav lights on in the Gulfstream when we left it alone with the GPU plugged in because the nav lights were powered by the monitor bus which was powered by the GPU so if the nav lights went out, it meant we had a problem with the GPU. We turn on the windshield heat in a Metro because SOP's, Swearingen/Fairchild and PPG Glass all say a glass windshield is 5 times stronger when warm and ours are thermostatically controlled so they will not overheat. I turn on the radar because Archie Trammel, the engineer who developed most airborne radars says if you turn off the radar and only use it when you need it, the magnetron should last about 10 years but if you simply turn it on all the time you are airborne, you can expect the magnetron to fail after 10 years of use. The Gulfstream had two rotating or flashing beacons, one on the belly and one on the tip of the vertical fin . The switch was selectable, belly only or both on. We possibly saved the life of one chap who was told that when a light turned on, something was going to happen. He stopped short just as we hit the starter. He came up from behind and nobody saw him. We do not operate with pitot heat on on the ground because Fairchild claims it will overheat but we use it all the time when airborne because it will help to dry the pitot lines and it also heats the Stall Avoidance System vane which is a certification requirement. We use all the avionics, even VFR because it as been proven withou a doubt that that is better for the avionics. But we also run with the nav lights on because that also turns the strobes on. It also dims the SAS Armed light which is a piss off. But the biggest piss off is that I know it is better to have the nav/strobes OFF in daylight but I leave them on because of force of habit. I never use landing light in daylight because of the expense and questionable benefit. This is a long drawn out blather to say, let us determine the pros and cons of a procedure and do what is best. Always have a reason for doing something. I imagine you, like me have a big long list of no-no's that you live by because you or somebody you know learned the hard (and sometimes fatal) way. Now. if you really want to get down to the dumbing down of the industry, let us talk about the necessity of pilots wearing a bright orange or yellow dayglo vest on the ramps. Now that is getting stupid.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Hows things going Oldtimer, haven't seen you in ages.
You should take some time off and lets go sailing with our wives sometime before we get to old to enjoy it.
.....the above is an excellent example....
...one day a couple of years ago in Europe I had just gotten out of my airplane dressed in a bright blaze orange flight suit after flying in the airshow that was being held at said airport....I was denied the right to cross the ramp to the terminal building because I was not wearing the required green safety vest....
insanity pure and simple...the world is going insane.
You should take some time off and lets go sailing with our wives sometime before we get to old to enjoy it.
The dumming down of society is exactly what I started this thread for...Now. if you really want to get down to the dumbing down of the industry, let us talk about the necessity of pilots wearing a bright orange or yellow dayglo vest on the ramps. Now that is getting stupid.
.....the above is an excellent example....
...one day a couple of years ago in Europe I had just gotten out of my airplane dressed in a bright blaze orange flight suit after flying in the airshow that was being held at said airport....I was denied the right to cross the ramp to the terminal building because I was not wearing the required green safety vest....
insanity pure and simple...the world is going insane.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
., taking the wives sailing. Is that a lot like taking a sandwitch to a banquet? but seriously, I have been so busy lately. I haven't had time to enjoy life but things are settling down to a dull roar so I am going to see if I cannot do the Naniamo sched for a couple of days. I will keep in touch.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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You are welcome to use my place at Poett Nook any time you want it...I'll tell you where they keys are....
...can you out think a sail boat at five knots?
...can you out think a sail boat at five knots?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
We had a problem with our D228. After several short hops in the summer we would get a batt over temp and were dead in the water till it cooled down. Phoned Dornier and their solution was to follow the AFM and only put on the pitot heat when icing was expected which certainly wasnt in the summer. Problem solved. Sometimes bad ideas get into SOPs. Whats wrong with having pitot heat lights illuminated on the advisory panel if you have the switch in the off position?
Holy fk I can't believe the shite that is posted at times. It is impossible for any manufacturer to supply an AFM or POH or a company to supply SOP's that cover all situations. For that reason, it is expected that you actually think while you fly.
Mandatory "pitot heat on" for a transport jet cannot be compared to a beaver at 1500 ft on a 35 degree day.
With both pitot heats selected OFF or failed on my aircraft, I get a red EICAS message and a red Master Warning. Is that a good way to take off? The POH EMER section doesn't even have you turn the switches on. They assumed you actually followed the normal proceedures in the first place.
Mandatory "pitot heat on" for a transport jet cannot be compared to a beaver at 1500 ft on a 35 degree day.
With both pitot heats selected OFF or failed on my aircraft, I get a red EICAS message and a red Master Warning. Is that a good way to take off? The POH EMER section doesn't even have you turn the switches on. They assumed you actually followed the normal proceedures in the first place.
As required
"As required" implies an option. Off or on. Pitot heat... as required
NORMAL TECHNIQUE
Traffic..................................................................................................check
Lights.........................................................................................as required
Transponder...........................................................................................ALT
Pitot Heat...................................................................................as required
Accelerate to 60 KIAS
Control wheel......................................................backpressure to smoothly
rotate to climb attitude
After liftoff...................................................................................tap brakes
AFTER TAKEOFF
Power.....................................................................................................Full
Lights.........................................................................................as required
Electric fuel pump...................................................................................OFF
Pitot Heat...................................................................................as required
CLIMB
Mixture.............................................................................adjust as required
CRUISE
Power.....................................................................................................set
Mixture....................................................................................................set
Pitot Heat.................................................................................. as required
Fuel............................................................................................proper tank
NORMAL TECHNIQUE
Traffic..................................................................................................check
Lights.........................................................................................as required
Transponder...........................................................................................ALT
Pitot Heat...................................................................................as required
Accelerate to 60 KIAS
Control wheel......................................................backpressure to smoothly
rotate to climb attitude
After liftoff...................................................................................tap brakes
AFTER TAKEOFF
Power.....................................................................................................Full
Lights.........................................................................................as required
Electric fuel pump...................................................................................OFF
Pitot Heat...................................................................................as required
CLIMB
Mixture.............................................................................adjust as required
CRUISE
Power.....................................................................................................set
Mixture....................................................................................................set
Pitot Heat.................................................................................. as required
Fuel............................................................................................proper tank
That was pretty much my point. It depends on the aircraft and the conditions. However, regarding your statement:
There is a lot wrong with it if it goes against the POH or AFM.Whats wrong with having pitot heat lights illuminated on the advisory panel if you have the switch in the off position?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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There is the risk when blindly following SOP's of several issues creeping into day to day operating of the airplane that can degrade the safety of flight through complacency which is natural for humans.
We can guard against complacency to a certain extent by paying attention to details that are not covered by SOP's which is known as airmanship, however airmanship also includes examining the SOP's for quality and necessity, remember the SOP your company uses may have been put in place by a marginally qualified pilot who got into the position of management through means other than skills or I.Q.
Anyhow I'm sure some of you out there can relate to questionable SOP's that could be improved upon.
We can guard against complacency to a certain extent by paying attention to details that are not covered by SOP's which is known as airmanship, however airmanship also includes examining the SOP's for quality and necessity, remember the SOP your company uses may have been put in place by a marginally qualified pilot who got into the position of management through means other than skills or I.Q.
Anyhow I'm sure some of you out there can relate to questionable SOP's that could be improved upon.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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- Location: Always moving
[quote]
remember the SOP your company uses may have been put in place by a marginally qualified pilot who got into the position of management through means other than skills or I.Q.
Bullseye .!
CP that is exactly why I started this thread, from observation and from reading I am quite concerned about the dumming down of the pilot pool by blind adherence to company SOP' and policies.
When pilots neglect to question why and fully think things through and just follow proceedures the learning curve will only go down.
Sometimes with tragic results.
Remember the " Peter Principle " works the same in flying as in all other walks of life and one must question things if one wishes to survive.
remember the SOP your company uses may have been put in place by a marginally qualified pilot who got into the position of management through means other than skills or I.Q.
Bullseye .!
CP that is exactly why I started this thread, from observation and from reading I am quite concerned about the dumming down of the pilot pool by blind adherence to company SOP' and policies.
When pilots neglect to question why and fully think things through and just follow proceedures the learning curve will only go down.
Sometimes with tragic results.
Remember the " Peter Principle " works the same in flying as in all other walks of life and one must question things if one wishes to survive.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
With regard to the pitot heat example, the company sop was pitot heat on for icing conditions(less than 5 degrees C and in visible moisture) so all summer you don't use it unless you climb up and in cloud. So wouldn't you
know it somebody forgot to turn it on under the previous mentioned conditions and was fortunate enough to get back on the ground safely. After that, pitot heat was turned on everytime during the before T/O checks regardless of temp.
I myself have never been in cloud and not aware of whether I'm picking up ice but at that point it's too late for pitot heat, so in my opinion if the manufacturer approves the use of pitot during all phases and temps then it does more good to use it all the time then risk forgetting when you do need it.
Also when a checklist says as required, there isn't a checklist later that says, don't forget your pitot heat is off and I'm sure a twotter on floats is more susceptible to pitot ice, for example the morning flight when the temp was 3 degrees.
SOP's will save your ass someday, if you notice a defficiency in your sop's write your cp with your reason and a solution and odds are they will make the change or provide you with the logic behind why it is the way it is.
know it somebody forgot to turn it on under the previous mentioned conditions and was fortunate enough to get back on the ground safely. After that, pitot heat was turned on everytime during the before T/O checks regardless of temp.
I myself have never been in cloud and not aware of whether I'm picking up ice but at that point it's too late for pitot heat, so in my opinion if the manufacturer approves the use of pitot during all phases and temps then it does more good to use it all the time then risk forgetting when you do need it.
Also when a checklist says as required, there isn't a checklist later that says, don't forget your pitot heat is off and I'm sure a twotter on floats is more susceptible to pitot ice, for example the morning flight when the temp was 3 degrees.
SOP's will save your ass someday, if you notice a defficiency in your sop's write your cp with your reason and a solution and odds are they will make the change or provide you with the logic behind why it is the way it is.
Last edited by mbav8r on Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
In that case, common sense says you use it when you need it. Watch the advice you get on SOP's though. Willful or neglectful non-adhearance will result in failed checkrides, line checks and/or issues related to continued employment.CP wrote:Phil
What I meant by that was, if your afm allows you to fly with the pitot heat off, it is expected and normal to see l and r pitot heat annuns illuminated. Whats wrong with that?
Remember, SOP's may not always make sense and the people writing them may not be the brightest but unless the SOP compromises safety of flight, you are obliged to follow them. Disregarding them without cause is no different than disregarding any other mandate from management.
