A question about use of lights etc.

CP · Post by CP » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 am

was fortunate enough to get back on the ground safely.

You make it sound like a death sentence if your pitot ices up. You dont fall out of the sky. Your indicated airspeed will drop to 0 but return to normal within a few seconds of turning on the pitot heat.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:34 am

Also when a checklist says as required, there isn't a checklist later that says, don't forget your pitot heat is off

Would you feel safe knowing that the crew up front in the airplane that you were flying in as a paying customer were so limited in their ability to recognize that things have changed during the flight and the airplane was entering an area where icing was a distinct possibility and they could not activate all the needed anti icing systems without a check list?

If SOP's and check lists are the most important items during flight to ensure safety and they replace a thought process will that open the doors for cookie cutter training and make learning how to fly dependent on your ability to read check lists and follow SOP's?

mbav8r · Post by **mbav8r** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:57 pm

CP wrote:
Quote:
was fortunate enough to get back on the ground safely.

You make it sound like a death sentence if your pitot ices up. You dont fall out of the sky. Your indicated airspeed will drop to 0 but return to normal within a few seconds of turning on the pitot heat.

Assuming the ice isn't further up the line then the tube itself,in this case the pitot line stayed blocked and had to be blown clean by maintnance, ever tried doing an approach with no airspeed indication, me neither but probably not fun.

. E wrote:
Would you feel safe knowing that the crew up front in the airplane that you were flying in as a paying customer were so limited in their ability to recognize that things have changed during the flight and the airplane was entering an area where icing was a distinct possibility and they could not activate all the needed anti icing systems without a check list?

If SOP's and check lists are the most important items during flight to ensure safety and they replace a thought process will that open the doors for cookie cutter training and make learning how to fly dependent on your ability to read check lists and follow SOP's?

., guess your perfect and don't forget things. I'm a firm beleiver of checklist, checklist,checklist... I guess that comes from flying medevac being tired and going in some dark place , I guess the pilots that have landed with perfectly operational gear still up in the wells didn't think they needed a paper reminder of gear....down 3 green, point I'm making is checklist and sop's SAVE your ass when you're not 100%

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:05 pm

SOP's are not contrary to good flying skills, they compliment them.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:32 pm

., guess your perfect and don't forget things.

No I'm not perfect.

However it would seem that I am seen as being that way by many of you.

Nowhere have I indicated that SOP's or check lists are not needed for the safe operation of airplanes, I guess I am from the wrong era of aviation and my expetations regarding common sense and airmanship is old fashioned and not needed as long as one follows SOP's and check lists.

PT6-114A · Post by **PT6-114A** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:20 pm

There is also "L Pitot Heat" and "R Pitot Heat" caution annunciators, which extinguish when the you turn the left and right pitot on. Clearly, the plane was designed for these switches to be on in flight.

I have NEVER seen these lights on the KA350

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:05 pm

mbav8r wrote: SOP's will save your ass someday, if you notice a deficiency in your sop's write your CP with your reason and a solution and odds are they will make the change or provide you with the logic behind why it is the way it is.

Or sometimes, he'll ignore you, or tell you that you must be off your med's, etc...... Even when pointing out stuff directly fcontrary to the AFM, you get nothing but lip service. And for .'s benefit, you approach your TC rep, and are promised that they'd look into it. PETER is ALIVE and WELL

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:07 pm

mbav8r wrote:Assuming the ice isn't further up the line then the tube itself,in this case the pitot line stayed blocked and had to be blown clean by maintnance, ever tried doing an approach with no airspeed indication, me neither but probably not fun.

I could see if you're landing on a short, soft runway where landing as slow as possible is important it might be a bit of an annoyance; other than that not having a working airspeed indicator is a fairly trivial issue, and easily done.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:29 pm

PT6-114A wrote:I have NEVER seen these lights on the KA350

I just went looking into my flight safety manual and it makes no mention of them, however our company SOPs do, and I know for a fact they're there because every time I land and turn off the pitot heat, the master caution flasher comes on for these two lights. It may be something added to FL492 and beyond.

PT6-114A · Post by **PT6-114A** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:09 pm

Crazy dude ya because FL354 does not do that

mbav8r · Post by **mbav8r** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:14 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Assuming the ice isn't further up the line then the tube itself,in this case the pitot line stayed blocked and had to be blown clean by maintnance, ever tried doing an approach with no airspeed indication, me neither but probably not fun.

naked wrote:
I could see if you're landing on a short, soft runway where landing as slow as possible is important it might be a bit of an annoyance; other than that not having a working airspeed indicator is a fairly trivial issue, and easily done.

Not to sound snooty but I said appoach not landing, In cloud without airspeed ads some challenges for climbing and descending, now all you heroes who might say still no problem, the point I was originally making was if you use your chcklist and sop's you likely will avoid dealing with this in the first place

yak driver · Post by **yak driver** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:16 pm

SOP's and Checklist are not written in stone. They just like everything in aviation are meant to be ammended. Nobody is perfect, (well almost nobody

) certainly not the guy/gal writting that stuff up. If you see something that doesn't work, or could be done better. Write it up, go talk with your boss. "Hey, a bunch of us were talking and according to the AFM, maybe we could do something this way.."

If you want to go away from the SOP, you better check with the person sitting in the cockpit with you, and go over why you would like to deviate from the SOP's. Sometimes there can be a very good reason for doing so. If it's something that more than one pilot is doing on more than a one off occasion, than maybe we need to look at ammending something in how the SOP's are written.

2R · Post by 2R » Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:41 pm

If you need a check list or SOP's to tell you when to turn your lights on or off you are probably still wearing those mits with the string that goes through your coat.And drive a bicycle with those little wheels on the side

Flow checks are way better !!!!

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:06 pm

I don't have any sops and my checklist reads switchs as req.

I have just lately started using my nav lights on taxi...because of a right of way issues.

I don't turn on the strobes until my pretakeoff check. and landing light when I think its needed.

I will follow sops to the letter.

Quick question. Some guys/gals do the alternator off to check the ammeter, to me thats seems stupid. Look at the ammeter before you crank it over and it should show a discharge....

Anyway does anyone know if this alternator check hurts anything?

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:11 pm

I did a circuit in a 150 that had a pitot static issue... no airspeed.

Attitude + power. However icing changes everything, and so do laminar wings i guess.

Oh and heating elements take up alot of energy, the fuse in single cessnas gets pretty darn hot when you got pitot heat on for any length of time.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:38 am

Some of these people haven't had to actually "think" since grade 6. Could some of you actually "fly" without SOPs, check lists, of somebody holding your hand, and wiping your runny nose? Me thinks not.

DOC, you are absolutely right.
The worst pilot I ever flew with in more than forty years could not function without SOPs. Downright dangerous and would actually get into trouble by 'following' SOPs.
I believe this pilot would fly the SOPs into the ground.

Yuck!

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:47 am

Snap Roll:::

I like you find it distressing to see this slavish dependence on SOP's to stay alive in airplanes.

The fault lies with the new age culture of dumb e'm down to the lowest common denominator in the quest for the holy grail of safety, taken literally we get slaves to SOP's and the possibility of riding an airplane into oblivion because a crew were unable to identify that something was way out of whack and not covered by SOP's.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:33 pm

When I need to turn on lights, I turn them on. When I need pitot heat, I turn it on. When I want to be treated like a complete moron, I'll sign up for Seneca College.
Oh, I HAVE a checklist. Somewhere in the dusty confines of my cockpit. And, if something malfunctions, that puppy will be brought out, and I will follow it to the letter. Because that's what check lists are for. They were never intended to be used as a "how to fly" instruction manual. But that's how some of these grade 6 grads use them for. I've flown with guys who shut down the engines with a check list. It's absolutely infantile, the dependence some of these younger pilots have on check lists and SOPs! Oh, what shall I do? Let me look it up.
When I see a guy pull out a check list, before he starts an engine....well, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard!

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:33 pm

So what you dinosaurs are saying is, "farg the sop's and checklists, we're gonna do it my way"!!

If that is the case, I just lost a lot of respect, no, all respect for you. That may have flown 40 years ago but it doesn't today.

If you want to work in an airline or sophisticated corporate environment, you won't get through a checkride with that attitude.

SOP's don't replace knowledge, ability or common sense. They just govern how a crew works. How else could you take 2 people who have never met, stick them in an airplane and have the desired results every time.

I am not saying you don't have to know what you are doing, know procedures, know your systems and know when to use lights and pitot heat. You still have to know and perform those duties, just within the guidlines of what the company management want.

Good pilots do use flow checks but a flow check can get you in as much trouble as any bad SOP can. Best to use your head before you flip the switch but do it within the framework the manufacturer and company wants.

To preach not using SOP's and checklists to the youth on here is just plain bad advice. A better idea is to follow your SOP's, but know why you are doing what they ask.

BTW, I too am a dinosaur, but I work in todays environment, not yesterdays.

Flame away!

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:14 pm

To preach not using SOP's and checklists to the youth on here is just plain bad advice. A better idea is to follow your SOP's, but know why you are doing what they ask.

BTW, I too am a dinosaur, but I work in todays environment, not yesterdays.

Who is preaching not to use SOP's and checklists flinphil?

I am only pointing out that with SOP's and check lists comes the need to be aware of what is going on at all times....I am only saying that slavish adherence to SOP' s and check lists makes for a robot, rather than a thinking pilot.

By the way I also work in todays environment with the experience and background of yesterdays enviorenment as an aid for how to fly aircraft.....from old biplanes to the most modern glass cockpits.

Also being a pilot of any aircraft is really not a superman thing.

2R · Post by 2R » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:37 pm

Flow checks are for pilots !!!
What are you going to do if the window opens and the check lists get blown away ???

The most respected Flight school in the world teaches flow checks with and abbreviated check list to confirm the flow. QED

The most dangerous situation is when a pilot memorizes a check list that has a bad flow .Then trusts his poor memorey and judgement to do what he thinks is a flow .If you are going to use a check list use it or throw it out and use flows just like the best trained pilots in the world do

The Other Kind · Post by **The Other Kind** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:41 pm

Excellent post flyinphil.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:49 pm

phil.....I don't recall saying anything of the sort. If you want to read that into it, I can't help you there, sport. What we are saying is....don't use them as a crutch. I really have flown with pilot who can't start an engine without pulling out a checklist.
Oh, and 2R, I always use a "flow". Been doing it for years. It works in every airplane.
BTW, nice language there phil. Thought you knew better.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:01 pm

So how did some of us manage to fly aircraft for over half a century in every possible enviornment on the planet without ever bending one if we did not know what we were doing?

I've lost track of all the aircraft I've flown over the years and it mattered not whether it was fixed or rotary wing a good flow check aided by a critical items written check list has kept me accident free....

....but I guess being a dinosaur just puts me in a lower social group than all you top guns huh?

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:25 pm

. and Doc, I agree with 99% of your posts but what you have written in this thread just smacks a little too much of bravado.