Wanted: Calgary pilots eager to build up their hours...

53x12 · Post by **53x12** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:04 am

Myself and a friend are looking to get to Great Falls, MT this Saturday (Sept. 29) to pick up a couple of new cars. We would like to pay for the fuel and borrow your time. Apologize for the late notice but if anyone out there is working toward their commercial license and doing a cross country trip, and would like to have their fuel paid for, let me know ASAP. This is all on the up and up, I can provide references and the car dealer contact info, whatever you need to feel good about lending us your time. Looking for someone with a decent amount of flying experience. 53times12@gmail.com

Peter

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 am

"for someone with a decent amount of flying experience."

Who will also work for free??

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:24 am

53x12 wrote:...but if anyone out there is working toward their commercial license...

Dash-Ate wrote:"for someone with a decent amount of flying experience."

Who will also work for free??

I don't think it would even be legal to pay him / her

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:25 am

I know...but the tone of the post seems a bit chisel-ly, if ya know what I mean.

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:25 am

No, this is less than fly for free. The fuel bill is only about half the operating cost. What is really being asked for is to have a pilot heavily subsidize their trip to the US.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:33 am

You should at least cover ALL expenses and buy the guy a case of beer.

53x12 · Post by **53x12** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:42 am

altiplano wrote:You should at least cover ALL expenses and buy the guy a case of beer.

Benwa read the post correctly. And no worries. Fuel and other expenses, and a case of good beer (for post-flight consumption!

).

Splatm · Post by **Splatm** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:14 pm

Sort of an OT question, would it not be considered a commercial flight since the pilot is getting time (something of value) and aircraft use paid for 100% by other people? I thought that stepped over line with regards to TCs definition of "Pilot for Hire".

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:33 pm

53x12

You should revise your ad.

Offer at least $200 per flying hour and you might find someone who can do it right and safely.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:45 pm

Splatm wrote:Sort of an OT question, would it not be considered a commercial flight since the pilot is getting time (something of value) and aircraft use paid for 100% by other people? I thought that stepped over line with regards to TCs definition of "Pilot for Hire".

It does; but if you can get away with it, more power to you.

furious george · Post by **furious george** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:10 pm

Let me get this straight.
On one thread we have guys complaining about shitty wages in this industry.
Now we have this clown trying to arrange a chisel charter on this site.
Oh, but it's okay "as long as you can get away with it."

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:59 pm

furious george wrote:Let me get this straight.
On one thread we have guys complaining about shitty wages in this industry.
Now we have this clown trying to arrange a chisel charter on this site.
Oh, but it's okay "as long as you can get away with it."

Oh grow up! If it goes as a straight charter, my guess is he and his buddies won't pay it, they'll drive. Instead he's giving someone building time the chance to do it at someone's expense. The only difference between this and your Mommy paying for you to take her flying when you were time building is that he's giving the opportunity to a stranger.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:11 pm

I don't see what the problem is here, jesus back during my flight training I would have killed for the chance to do that.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:18 am

shitdisturber is right. It's just a guy trying to get somewhere and offer a lowtimer some hours. If the future of the industry depends on these heroes on here getting all bent out of shape by that, then we're screwed.

53x12, if I wasn't flying overseas I'd come and do that flight for a case of beer in a heartbeat, sounds like fun and unlike some of the other other posters around here you sound pretty easy-going....

fatdumbandlazy · Post by **fatdumbandlazy** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:30 am

This is a straight up chisel charter. You have someone post on a public forum looking for a pretty specific trip. So in the event of an accident it wouldn't take too much for the powers at be to do a litle digging and everyone is in a pile of excrement.

For those who are considering saving $100 on your timebuilding and making a case of beer for your time know that:

- If it is proven that you were on a chisel charter the CTA will fine you, we're talking big Gs here several cases where the fine is $100G+.
- Insurance will not cover you in the event of an accident, in that case you (or your estate) will be buying an airplane and paying damages to your 'customers' and bystanders.
- Convictions on your TC file don't look good when it comes time to apply for CP, Ops Man, or CFI positions.
- I don't know a flight school (ok maybe I know a few) that would look very kindly on this kind of activity

Now to make this above board you would have to be already going to the destination on business of your own. That part is difficult to prove under any circumstance. But in this case someone is openly soliciting for an air transport service on a public forum. When you are approached to take someone somewhere that's air taxi. Tempting but I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:44 am

You have a chosen a good name fatdumb and lazy.....

...your advice is exactly that dumb.....

It is people like you who are responsible for the state the industry is in, when we have to live life in fear of morons who make up rules and regulations that are punitive and people take them seriously the industry has truly gone to hell.

To the guy looking for a flight and willing to pay part of the expenses so someone can build time towards a career in flying good on you.

What people do in their private lives should be of no concern to others, and there is nothing wrong with private flights being done sharing expenses.

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:56 am

WOW!

Okay, so according you guys, if my Dad wasnts to go up to Williams Lake and says " Hey Canpilot! Need to go to Williams Lake i'll buy the Airplane and gas" I am supposed to tell him to get stuffed???

Or in the case of Cadets..(Which DND/ TC know about) Refuse FREE hours? I can think of a few organizations where pilots rent a plane and the organization Cadets OR CASARA absorb the operating costs and ONLY operating costs. Both these organizations or government funded and or in the case of CASARA ..work for the government per se.

53x12..If you were in my neck of the woods, I would have gladly helped you out. I'm sure you will find someone to help ya out..Check those PM's!

RatherBeFlyingInCanada · Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:25 pm

I can imagine clearing customs in this situation:

Customs officer- "How do you know eachother?"

Pilot- "We don't, we just met."

*Cue rubber glove*

petey · Post by **petey** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:01 pm

@#$! it, I'm in!

Sasquash · Post by **Sasquash** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:45 pm

The original message mentioned about building time towards a commercial. That being the case, we have to assume our pilot is private, which I believe would make 401.28 applicable in this case

The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder
(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;
(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; AND receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), AND
(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

So, if the private pilot is flying to the States and the car buyers want to ride along COINCIDENTALLY and all occupants share the expenses equally, it is legal. If the pax calls for a pilot to take them to the states and expenses are not shared equally, not legal.

These rules by the way exist to protect the legal commercial air services. They spent the big bucks for the red tapes, maintenance and so on. Some guys would take advantage of this offer some wouldn't. It is all a matter of perception and everything is legal until some authority start asking questions. The consequences have been severe under the Act and one can google the Transportation appeal tribunal to verify some of the outcomes.

There is also a valid comment about insurance coverage. When it's shown the flight was not within the regulations, they won't cover period and you're left with the entire loss of the aircraft and civil suit(s) from the pax if they're hurt or worst.

Lots to think about, guys. Nowaydays, you gotta be sure.

fatdumbandlazy · Post by **fatdumbandlazy** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:58 pm

". ."]

when we have to live life in fear of morons who make up rules and regulations that are punitive and people take them seriously the industry has truly gone to hell.

., if that's your real name. Statements like that really concern me for the safety of anyone in your vicinity. That argument can be used to explain away any anti social behavior.

Rules are put in place to keep the playing field somewhat level and to protect the public that doesn't know any better. Talk to the CTA, talk to vicitims, don't talk to TC (CBA is the worst dept. in all of TC for making sense). The other agencies that monitor these activities make a better argument against chisel charter than I can.

Hell I speed to work everyday and if I get caught I'll pay the ticket because that's the risk I take. I was just explaining to other people that if all you see is cheap flying everything is good, you need to stop and ask what will happen when everything is not good?

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:18 pm

., if that's your real name.

Yes that is.

Statements like that really concern me for the safety of anyone in your vicinity.

Don't concern yourself about the safety of anyone in my vicinity because I am one of the most safety conscious people in aviation.

My commments were directed at moronic rules made up by morons for the sake of rule making.

The person who asked the original question was not looking for a chisel charter he was lookoing to share expenses on a trip in an airplane, sharing expenses is a long way from a chisel charter.

Maybe some of you should settle down and get a grip on reality.

. ......my real name.

JL · Post by JL » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:06 pm

Hey ., why the new handle? I almost blew by the thread as it didn't have Cat Driver on any of the posts.

53x12 · Post by **53x12** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:31 pm

Well if nothing else this has been an entertaining discussion. No one took me up on my offer of sharing costs, so we're driving, which is just as well since the weather is turning to shite tomorrow anyhow. But I do hope to go down and buy another car in the next month and if I do I'll post again.

For the record, shitdisturber, complexintentions, ., et al, have it exactly right. I see nothing wrong with offering to pay the costs for some young person building hours in exchange for the experience of a ride-along in a small plane. They get a subsidized cross-country trip and experience with international flying. Based on the rules posted by sasquatch it's perfectly legit (I don't see anything about *equal* sharing of costs in the reg).

The fact I might decide to disembark at the outbound destination is incidental to the whole thing. I've been on plenty of discovery flights and trips of that sort and I see this as much the same thing, just longer and one way for my buddy and me. If you think that's borderline criminal you should probably learn to relax a little.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:34 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey ., why the new handle? I almost blew by the thread as it didn't have Cat Driver on any of the posts.

I figured I may as well use my real name because it just seems more logical as most everyone knows who Cat Driver is anyhow.

Wanted: Calgary pilots eager to build up their hours...

Wanted: Calgary pilots eager to build up their hours...

Re: Wanted: Calgary pilots eager to build up their hours...