Who would join the Canadian Pilots Association?

avi8tr78 · Post by **avi8tr78** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:43 pm

For years now I have always wondered why us pilots do not have an association that governs our working conditions, pay structure, etc. Are we not worth it? Are we not to the level of plumbers, electricians, police officers, or whoever else joins a general union or association upon recieving licenses and privillages. I firmly believe that if all pilots were forced to join a general union/association upon recieving their commercial license then working conditions and pay would be drastically different in this counrty. It could be structured on a by airplane basis. (Captains on X airplane make X amount of dollars, first Officers on X airplane should make no less that X dollars) Just a thought! I always wondered why if all these other professions have this why don't we.

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:33 pm

I would have to differentiate between a Union and an Association. I will never work in a union outfit, as I refuse to settle for upgrades and promotions based on a senority # alone and not skill and work ethic and any of the multitude of other factors that warrant responsiblility for an aircraft and passengers. An association could still set the standard for pay, working conditions and other things, while still leaving room for your chief pilot to ensure that qualified people are flying the airplanes. So given the choice, I would join an association but not a union.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:03 pm

Judging by what I'm reading in this Forum, YOU ALL NEED TO JOIN SOMETHING, because an awful lot of you are being fucked.

Just my take.

stl

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:25 pm

Yup need to pay my hard earned cash to an organization. That will make life better...

It will only work if we get to break some kneecaps - then I'm in.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:08 pm

altiplano wrote:Yup need to pay my hard earned cash to an organization. That will make life better...

It will only work if we get to break some kneecaps - then I'm in.

Join the Hell's Angels for all I care, maybe a few kneecap would be a good idea....Hmmm

stl

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:07 pm

avi8tr78 - Ive brought up that idea a number of times here @ avcanada, but there just doesn't seem to be the interest....I don't know why though becuase as far as I'm concerned it would do nothing but help pilots becuase then companies could advertise that they are approved by "x pilot association" Companies who screw over pilots or make them pay to fly would not be approved, making it harder for them to find people to work for them.

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:41 am

That's great as long as management is your buddy, if not your screwed. If you can't pass the ride then, fail the ride, and take your chances with employment. That said a company gets the Union it deserves

flyer wrote:I would have to differentiate between a Union and an Association. I will never work in a union outfit, as I refuse to settle for upgrades and promotions based on a senority # alone and not skill and work ethic and any of the multitude of other factors that warrant responsiblility for an aircraft and passengers. An association could still set the standard for pay, working conditions and other things, while still leaving room for your chief pilot to ensure that qualified people are flying the airplanes. So given the choice, I would join an association but not a union.

nacho · Post by **nacho** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:54 am

I am with STL on this one 100%. Or work on a contract basis , I don't know, but hearing some of my friends that are flying "bigger and better" than me, makes me very happy to be a cropduster/ferrry pilot and NOT working for any of these outfits that think they can pay their pilots hamburger flippin' wages.
It will probably take them a lot of years to be close yo what we make...But we depend on the farmers and if they have a bad year so do we... no security here.. Still think that if a bunch of guys say NO, we are not gonna do it for that, maybe things could change... Good luck!

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:15 am

Why do you need a professional association to develop something called SELF RESPECT? Some people fly with a certain standard that goes above SOPs, above transport regulations sometimes to referred to as personal minimums. Try doing that with your own career standards.

If you don't like what a company pays or how they treat their people, let some scab do the job, many roads lead to Rome for the person willing to seek said roads out.

Basically, call it what it is: "I need a professional association because some companies are mean and I am stupid"

avi8tr78 · Post by **avi8tr78** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:08 am

So Desksgo what your saying is that all electricians, plumbers and anyone else with a professional association is stupid. The problem is that yes we do need protection from these "mean" companies and more importantly, we need protection from other pilots who will fly for those "mean" companies at a cheaper rate and undercut somebody else!!!

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:24 am

avi8tr78 wrote:So Desksgo what your saying is that all electricians, plumbers and anyone else with a professional association is stupid.

By your reasoning...yes. If you need an association to protect yourself from a few bad apples in our industry, then yes, you have problem. You never addressed COMMON SENSE AND SELF RESPECT! Where be it in our industry?

The common sense society has long since died, so apparently, you do need an association to tell you not to pay money to work for someone and accept inadequate conditions.

You address pay standards as your justification for the forced acceptance of an industry standard. That's quite a subjective standard to base your argument on though.

I appreciate you wanting to raise the bar but I don't see it happening.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:39 am

avi8tr78 wrote:we need protection from other pilots who will fly for those "mean" companies at a cheaper rate and undercut somebody else!!!

Yea we do becuase there are a LOT of them out there, & they are screwing the entire industry

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:05 pm

No unions please...

there are too many hard working guys that won't be able to work their way up the way they deserve to because of 'seniority'... not a good situation.

I've worked in unions before (not as a pilot) but the extra work people like myself would put in just isn't noticed because all that matters is the start date not how hard you work

Captain Crunch · Post by **Captain Crunch** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:52 pm

News flash everyone, the Canadian Pilot's Association already exists, its what we here at Perimeter have to represent us. By all means, everyone is invited, the more the merrier. Dues are very reasonable, and we were given Subway at our last contract meeting!!! There was enough for everyone too, including my rather large appetite. Ironically enough, the guy making the sandwich makes almost as much as our starting FO's do. But the good news is, he doesn't have any of the pressures of flying an ILS to minimums in a smoke filled cockpit with one engine (that almost never happens). And if there are still hungry people in line at the end of his shift, he gets to go home. At least he gets to go to work after a heavy night of drinking.... wait a minute, nah forget it.
Fokker out!

818 miles se ywg · Post by **818 miles se ywg** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:46 am

i have been a long time viewer of this site but this is the first time i have posted something. i firmly believe that a professional association for pilots is desperately needed. a strong association would finally allow pilots to take more control of thier careers, protect themselves from shady operators and set professional standards.

an association need not be set up as a union. i am by no means advocating a system where you get a number after your commercial flight test that determines your progression through the industry, however there is a great deal of power in numbers and unity. in canada there are far too many stories of pilots getting screwed, far too few career type operaors and not nearly enough power for the people that drive this industry

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:59 pm

818 miles se ywg wrote:i have been a long time viewer of this site but this is the first time i have posted something. i firmly believe that a professional association for pilots is desperately needed. a strong association would finally allow pilots to take more control of thier careers, protect themselves from shady operators and set professional standards.

an association need not be set up as a union. i am by no means advocating a system where you get a number after your commercial flight test that determines your progression through the industry, however there is a great deal of power in numbers and unity. in canada there are far too many stories of pilots getting screwed, far too few career type operaors and not nearly enough power for the people that drive this industry

That is you problem right there. You need a STRONG assoc. not just any assoc. Remenber an association/union or what ever you want to call it, is only as strong as its menbers. The reasons why pilots get screwed is because we do it to ourselves. Otherwise there would not be a need for an assoc. in the first place.

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:08 pm

Trouble with forming an association is that by improving conditions for pilots, you're taking money and power away from managers and owners.

I personally think any pilot who tried to setup a serious organization that would threaten the applecart would probably find themselves blacklisted.

818 miles se ywg · Post by **818 miles se ywg** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:12 pm

Trouble with forming an association is that by improving conditions for pilots, you're taking money and power away from managers and owners.

I personally think any pilot who tried to setup a serious organization that would threaten the applecart would probably find themselves blacklisted.

That is you problem right there. You need a STRONG assoc. not just any assoc. Remenber an association/union or what ever you want to call it, is only as strong as its menbers. The reasons why pilots get screwed is because we do it to ourselves. Otherwise there would not be a need for an assoc. in the first place.

you make the argument for me...if operators are so slimy as to black list pilots that stand up for themselves and demand to be treated like the highly trained and skilled professionals we are then we need to protect ourselves from them. and if the general pilot population is too weak and gutless to stand up for themselves then perhaps as a group we would be strong enough to demand what we deserve. by ourselves maybe we are weak but together we dont have to be

Reality · Post by **Reality** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:48 pm

WAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I am not getting paid enough, I don't want to work and I want more benefits, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa I am a pilot, I deserve more, WAAAAAAAAAAA, I AM A GLORIFIED TAXI DRIVER, WAAAAAAAAAAA.... EDITED, some of you are determined to ruin the industry, always complaining, if your not happy quit. Times are good for pilots, if you think your worth more then you will be paid more. I am tired of whiney pilots always bitching and giving us all a bad rep. The reputation of pilots is becoming disgusting, nothing is ever good enough for alot of you people, stop dragging me down with you or anyone else that enjoys being a pilot. I get paid well because I do my job and I enjoy it, change your shitty attitudes and maybe you will too.

nacho · Post by **nacho** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:43 pm

trancemania · Post by **trancemania** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:02 pm

Listen man,

Im not for unions and im not against unions.

I make my own life.

But here's my take:

If you do join a union wouldnt you want to get the perks towards the end of your career just because of your #?

Who would HONESTLY give up what they have to someone with 10-15 years less experience???

Try not think of yourself at your current age.think of yourself 20-30 years from now.

Bottom line.You will get your turn in the "sun".........great flights,great pay
great woman!!!

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:46 am

As usual there are two sides to every story.

Go union/association.
If you go union/association the deadwood is protected by the contract. Go getters who do a great job get no further ahead even with their phenomenal efforts. It's all about the seniority #.

Non union/association.
The ones that get ahead with a good company are the ones who deserve it, unless they are ass kissers to management who get ahead by sucking up while not necessarily doing a good job. Deadwood gets fired.

You pick.

Cheers all..

gasper · Post by **gasper** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:45 am

WAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I am not getting paid enough, I don't want to work and I want more benefits, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa I am a pilot, I deserve more, WAAAAAAAAAAA, I AM A GLORIFIED TAXI DRIVER, WAAAAAAAAAAA.... EDITED, some of you are determined to ruin the industry, always complaining, if your not happy quit. Times are good for pilots, if you think your worth more then you will be paid more. I am tired of whiney pilots always bitching and giving us all a bad rep. The reputation of pilots is becoming disgusting, nothing is ever good enough for alot of you people, stop dragging me down with you or anyone else that enjoys being a pilot. I get paid well because I do my job and I enjoy it, change your shitty attitudes and maybe you will too

Right On Reality. My sentiments as well!

If you want to make up an effective poll....you need to explain with more info what the mandate of the said organization would be. Being an operator in this industry can be very hard (at least starting out). An operator has to be financially shrewd, and have employees with the operator's goal in mind (generate shareholder value), while at the same time doing it safely and legally. (By the same token, he will have to keep employees satisfied by being fair). Many (definitely not all) people I have met in my 30 yr journey through aviation care little for those around them. .... ie. "me-first" philosophy, simply because they have got themselves a pilot licence. The world doesn't owe you anything because you know how to fly an airplane!

If you are not happy somewhere, vote with your feet (and keep your mouth shut please).

Signed...
sceptacle

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:24 am

In regards to the above, fair enough, the world owes us nothing regardless of anything we know or do. But most, if not all of commercial aviation has survived on presenting the paying public with the notion that pilots and maintenance are complete professionals, and are thus expected to behave so. Glorified taxi drivers, perhaps, but if the public had that impression, they would not pay to fly. Auto mechanics make as much or more than AME's, truck driver's make as much or more than pilots, with exceptions in all cases. If pilots and/or AME's become legally recognised professionals, then overnight many, many 702-703-704 and some 705 ops would shut down. Most cannot afford to operate at that level of payroll and as strictly under the regulations as a professional structure would allow. Good or bad as that may seem, I simply don't think pilots and mechanics should have to pay or work their backsides off with significantly and insultingly low pay just for the priviledge of flying an airplane. The 'Glory days' of aviation are over, either we are treated, respected, act and are payed like professionals, or we are glorified taxi drivers, with similar pay, respect and attitudes. The industry as a whole needs to decide. I would suggest very few would pay to get into an airplane with a pilot who appears, acts and smells like your average taxi driver. (Sorry taxi drivers)

Pie Lot · Post by **Pie Lot** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:34 pm

I would gladly join an association. This would be a forum for pilots and operators to discuss various issues and try to come to some agreements that are mutually beneficial. It is a good opportunity for one side to hear the other sides point of view. It has to go both ways.

But in the end companies still have the right to do what they see fit with their own operation. Pilots still have the right to vote with their feet so to speak. It still gives each side a chance to share their insight and hopefully help each other out.

In my company, a couple of us got together with management about 2 years ago. There were issues the pilots didn't think were fair, and we felt that we were getting screwed. Our DFO didn't agree. We met, showed him a well put together argument and let him know why we were feeling the way we were. We told him why guys were working to rule (this was not organized either, just a bunch of fed up guys trying to fight back on their own), why people were not going the extra mile, and maybe he should pay fair per diems. Maybe he could understand why our scheduled days working had increased 50% in a year, with no pay increase. Why people were pissed we were the lowest paid pilots on that particualr aircraft in NWO.

We warned him that at least 9 Captains were ready to quit, most guys had decided to work to rule, and that the training costs of replacing Captains in the next couple of years would be enormous compared to a modest raise to industry standard to try and keep them. We also explained that flights cancelled due to inexperience, props chewed up, and god forbid one off the runway or worse were incredibly expensive. The raises took 18 months to come. In that time training costs were incredible, props were a regular $60K expense, planes stayed on the ground on cloudy days with isolated CB's when they would have all flown successfully in the old days. I don't even want to hazard what the plane off the runway (no injuries) wound up costing in the end.

we explained that paying for doing training and line indoc would ensure people were willing to do it and were qualified. We explained that the lost days of new Captains due to rides being postponed for up to a month due to no trainers and aircraft was expensive.

He (claims) said he had no idea this was happening and did look at various issue we brought up. Some were fixed, others not. He also explained the companies point of view, which we took back to the pilots.

Ultimately every Captain has quit since then, training costs are huge etc. I think this is just the industry now, where it was not like that back then. But at least we explained each side to the other. Things got a little better for both sides after that.

This wasn't written to be a told you so to a company. It was written to show how that pilots can meet with Companies Management. They can tell them what they are seeing from the pilots view. They can tell the companies what to expect to happen from the pilot group if current situations continue. It is also a chance for the company to plan for upcoming people quitting and the associated costs and time needed for training. It is also a chance for the companies to see what the pilots are thinking and to understand morale problems, or to explain their rational for what is going on. They can explain tough times, the plan to fix it, and the benefits that might ultimately come later. In the end communication is a good thing. In the end pilots and management decide for themselves. But at least they know where the other side is coming from.

But as far as Unions. all of us at said company decided we did not want that. We liked the fact that your seniority did not guarantee an upgrade or the base of your choice. The idiots and dog fuckers were allowed to be passed over. I still believe to this day that upgrades etc should be awarded on merit. Not on a seniority number. Flying with an asshole, or a guy who is barely qualified sucks. This way that guy can be passed over. Not in a union.

Plus unions have a habit of getting as out of control as some DFO's. They demand and get through strikes etc pay and benefits that companies can't afford. Just look to the list of legacy and flag Carriers that can attest to this fact. Layoff's etc are not my idea of good times.

Who would join the Canadian Pilots Association?

Would you join a pilots Association/union upon obtaining your commercial licence if it assured you better pay and working conditions.

Who would join the Canadian Pilots Association?