Kinda makes me go hmmmmm....

[El Comat]

....when I read a thread about someone abandoning puppies, and see people get all riled up talking about all the painful things they'd like to do to that guy for being so stupid. Replace 'puppy' with 'unborn baby' and 'abandon' with 'kill', and you've got an everyday situation that nobody seems to care about...abortion. The would-be mother has made the same poor choices (no planning, no birth control, no thought of putting the baby up for adoption), yet we say it's her "choice" to kill a baby that would bring so much joy to an infertile couple.

I'm not picking on any individual on this forum, just on a liberal society in general. We vilify someone who leaves puppies in a box (I do agree they should be punished), but support someone who doesn't want to live with the consequences of her actions and kills a baby in the process!! There are people on huge waiting lists to adopt babies!!

OK end rant...what a messed up world we live in. I value human life over animal life (I love animals too, though!!) and for some weird reason I'm sure someone will find grounds on which to flame me

EC

[Walker]

The flaw in your logic is that not everyone considers it kill. I have no intention to get into a debate over the ethics of abortion, HOWEVER! You must see that the entire situation revolves around a disagreement of perspective.
IF your perspective were to be changed so that you did not believe that a fetus was “alive” in the moral/ethical/spiritual sense, but was rather something along the lines of a gallbladder, could you not see where the argument for pro choice could be brought from ? Qui malo?

Conversely I am 100% certain that you could take the most staunch supporter of abortion, and should they be convinced that the promise of life was indeed a new unique sentient being, then in no way would they support abortion.
Qui bono?


The issue is not weather or not it is right or wrong to kill, the question (which will NEVER be answered to everyone’s agreement) Is weather or not an unborn child is indeed alive over and above the fact that it has cellular growth.

At which point does something gain the moniker of “life” when it is born? When its CNS comes online? Once neurological tissue begins to develop? Once it is no longer a ball of goo? Once the egg has been fertilized? Once there is an Egg or a sperm (in which case everyone is a mass murderer and males are responsible for more deaths than could ever be counted)

What about the question of experimentation in a lab?
If a scientist is dicking around and makes something that begins to grow then tosses it in the autoclave is she/he committing murder?
What about cloning?
What about animals?
What about in 100 years when a technologically sentient being comes into existence?

None of these are an issue of weather or not it is right to kill something that is alive… They are all questions of what is the litmus test for life….. and before you answer that question think long and hard about it because there is the potential to make a LOT of nasty global unintended consequences if miss judged

[El Comat]

I see your argument, and it makes sense.

For me, life begins when the egg is fertilized and growth takes place. The embryo grows into a baby the same way the baby grows into an adult. I see no major transformation that takes place at birth where the "blob of dead flesh" turns into something living. The only thing that changes is where the baby is living...outside instead of inside!

Anyway, that's my take on things. Thanks for posting a "grown-up" reply (I honestly expected someone to post the usual AvCanada "you're-a-conservative-idiot" banter)!

EC

[Hedley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Every_Sperm_Is_Sacred

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

[Doc]

Hedley...you have WAY too much time on your hands...get a job!

[Hedley]

I found out the local sperm bank pays $50 per donation. I started to cry - I've let a fortune slip through my fingers over the years

[niss]

Another thing is for every person who says that abortion is immortal, people should have used birth control instead, theres just as many people saying birth control is immortal.

[C-GGGQ]

I don't think either think is immortal, immoral maybe. Anyways, unless you are planning on having a kid, i think most people find out they are pregnant long after most definitions of life (ie bloodflow, CNS, etc.) are in place, since the heart starts pumping 3 weeks after fertilization i think its safe to say its alive week 3. And by week 8-11 it can clench its fists. We can debate the point at which it comes "alive" all day, but i think the point is with so many people infertile and wanting to adopt, why have an abortion at all, if you don't want the child SOMEONE does.

[Doc]

Has anyone ever sat down and considered the stroke of luck that got YOU here in the first place. Give it some thought. But for too many factors to even think about, there would never have been YOU. Mull it over.

[Meecka]

Hedley.. I havn't seen or heard anyone quote Monty Python in a VERY LONG TIME... I guess the guys I work with are too young... Oh GAWD!!!

[Mile High Guy]

The biggest issue over this issue as has been raised is when does life begin. I look at it this way, and I am no proponent of abortion, but up until the 7th month a fetus cannot sustain life on its own. In a very real sense (ethics aside) it's tumour living off of it's host. Or to look at life on the other side of the scale. If someone is in a hopsital bed hooked up to a heart and lung machine, on a kidney machine with a resperator going, are they alive? Would they live their "cord" was cut?

I do believe that you can be both prochoice and anti-abortion. You may not like the idea of abortion, but still believe that each person is allowed to decide for themselves.

So if you are a vocal anti-abortionist are you willing to allow someone to control YOUR life in same way you are trying to force YOUR opinion on someone else's life?
If you are willing to allow someone to make a choice that will FOREVER change YOUR life, and be ok with it. Then I say you're allowed to speak up.
If however you do not think I or anyone else, have any right to control your life, for the rest of it, then you do not have the right to tell me or someone else, what to do in their life. You cannot have it both ways.

The reality of life is that until you have a voice, you don't!

[C-GGGQ]

YES if someone is hooked to a respirator they are still alive! no they might not live if the machine was unhooked but that is murder or at least assisted suicide!

[Mile High Guy]

YES if someone is hooked to a respirator they are still alive! no they might not live if the machine was unhooked but that is murder or at least assisted suicide!

Ahhh, but again you're making a legal case, and giving an opinion. My question was, Are you alive? I would say no. Living is the ability to sustain oneself, a fetus or a person on life support cannot sustain their own life, hense the need for a life support system.

[El Comat]

I'd say living means "not dead", therefore someone on a respirator is living. Saying that since a fetus cannot support itself, it is dead...that is very flawed. I have yet to see an infant that will whip up some formula and feed himself/herself without adult assistance (ie - doing ALL the work). They need someone feeding them just the same as when they were in the womb. The only technicality is that the embylical (sp?) cord is not attached anymore.

EC

[Guido]

I'd say living means "not dead", therefore someone on a respirator is living. Saying that since a fetus cannot support itself, it is dead...that is very flawed. I have yet to see an infant that will whip up some formula and feed himself/herself without adult assistance (ie - doing ALL the work). They need someone feeding them just the same as when they were in the womb. The only technicality is that the embylical (sp?) cord is not attached anymore.

EC

You must have a tough life with an opinion like that, El Comat. I mean, you must not be able to eat meat, vegetables (they're alive too afterall)....
This is a debate I've refuse to get involved in. Obviously abortion is not something that's a desirable choice for anyone... but at some point you have to wonder whether it's better for us to save every single life so that a child can grow up in poverty, probably in a home that didn't really want to have another child, nor has the capacity to care for one.
Until orphans are a thing of the past, I think I'll have the opinion that abortions are an unfortunate, but viable, option in the world. Frankly, some days, I don't see how it's ethical to bring another human life into the world - a life that will inevitably cause harm to the rest of the world... but that's a little off topic.

[2R]

Do dog recepies work for puppies ??? All the free puppies in this neighbouhood i may never have to buy meat again

Why stop at killing the innocent unprotected babies ?Why not the women who do not want to be the mothers of these unwanted unloved babies?
If we can pay to murder an innocent unborn when it is at it's most vulnerable why stop there ???
Why do some people who approve of killing unloved babies want to keep convicted child killers like paul bernardo or clifford olsen alive ???Every life sacred ???just not the victims eh ???

The prochoice people do not not offer any choice to a woman they only offer the services of a mass-murderer to kill the innocent unborn.
They offer no support or shelter to a poor woman .Some choice to give a woman in a vulnerable state .That is the length of their love for their fellow human to help murder the innocent .No support to help continue education or career .Only the means to facilitate an appointment with a cold hearted killer of the unborn .
No daycares or creches .What choice do these sanctimonious killers offer women ???Where is the love for the innocent unborn

Do you think they would eat puppy soup at the homeless shelter ???
Or would those poor people find it morally repugnant

[Sulako]

Why stop at calling a fetus an innocent baby?

How about the rivers of sperm you expel? Each of those could have fertilized an egg, and there you go firing them into an old sock at least six times a day. Poor little fishies never had a chance. Is that not tantamount to pre-murder?

A fetus isn't a person, a fetus is a fetus. When does a fetus become a person? When a child can shuffle and deal a deck of cards, they become a person. Until then, I think abortion should remain a viable option.

I'm kidding, but it doesn't matter what I think. I'm a guy and it's not my choice. I wouldn't dream of being arrogant enough to presume to tell a woman what to do with her own body. Would you?

If you are against abortion, then don't ever have one. Other than that, stfu.

[Dex]

Since its such a contentious issue why don't we let God sort this one out. If God considers it murder then he/she will decide on the persons involved judgment day. Both sides can rest at night knowing that God will do the right thing.

[Sulako]

Sounds good to me. My god says abortion is an unfortunate but occasionally necessary part of the world we live in. Oh, and the same thing goes for porn and beer, except for the part about them being unfortunate.

[flyinphil]

I'm kidding, but it doesn't matter what I think. I'm a guy and it's not my choice. I wouldn't dream of being arrogant enough to presume to tell a woman what to do with her own body. Would you?

An egg on its own does not and cannot constitute life. The same goes for sperm. The two combined create life. Pretty simple really. As long as sex was consentual, why should the woman alone be the holder of fate for the life two people created?

[SkyWolfe]

The person whom started this thread is clearly not a women... Im not even gonna get into this as Im to frikken angry...

[El Comat]

You must have a tough life with an opinion like that, El Comat. I mean, you must not be able to eat meat, vegetables (they're alive too afterall)....
This is a debate I've refuse to get involved in. Obviously abortion is not something that's a desirable choice for anyone... but at some point you have to wonder whether it's better for us to save every single life so that a child can grow up in poverty, probably in a home that didn't really want to have another child, nor has the capacity to care for one.
Until orphans are a thing of the past, I think I'll have the opinion that abortions are an unfortunate, but viable, option in the world. Frankly, some days, I don't see how it's ethical to bring another human life into the world - a life that will inevitably cause harm to the rest of the world... but that's a little off topic.

Let me restate....

I place a much higher value on human life than I do on that of an animal's. I still respect animals, and will buy my wife a nice golden retriever when we live in a house someday.

And with so many willing (and carefully screened) couples out there looking to adopt babies, there is no reason why a baby shouldn't be able to find a good home (a good real estate agent will also help ).

And like someone else said on this post, why, when it takes two equal parts to create a baby, does the woman have all the say when it comes time to terminate the pregnancy? Your uncomfortable nine months could lead to someone's lifetime of happiness.

For me, life is too precious to waste because someone doesn't want to live with the consequences of their actions. After seeing two miscarriages and one nephew with massive birth defects (bilateral cleft pallet and Opitz Fritz Syndrome...but he's still a cute and amazing little guy!), I realize how amazing the gift of a healthy baby really is. To see all these young women abort a potentially healthy baby breaks my heart....there's other viable options out there.

EC

[stef]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

[2R]

Just a shame that the pro-murder group did not have mothers that shared their views.

[Meecka]

And like someone else said on this post, why, when it takes two equal parts to create a baby, does the woman have all the say when it comes time to terminate the pregnancy? Your uncomfortable nine months could lead to someone's lifetime of happiness

.

Yes of course ALL the potential fathers are right there very much wanting the child. There is never a single case of him F*&@ing off as soon as he finds out she's pregnant. Oh puleeeze!