Twin rental/fast single airplane rental in YUL OCT.17/07

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:13 pm

Anybody know where I can rent a twin engine or single engine with 140ktas+ aircraft this Wednesday in the Montreal area? Tried with Cargair but the Aztecs are booked..

Need to go to CSK3-KROC-KBDR-CSK3.....& time is of the essence.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance,
-ICE11

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:51 pm

Chisel, Iceman?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:31 pm

xsbank wrote:Chisel, Iceman?

?

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:01 am

Try Lorne Gray aircraft lease..if its a longer term kinda thing..I almost leased on of their C182's...GREAT GUY TOO!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:55 am

Chisel charter is defined as charter work without a 70x OC.

I'm sure ICEMAN was already planning to make the trip, when his friends asked if they could come along, and that direct costs will be shared as specified by CAR 401.28(2), right?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#401_28

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:36 am

Building some multi time....flying where-ever! Friend of mine has a couple of meetings. He's gonna cover half the cost.
Should be within the rules. Right?

The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(d) receives a reimbursement that
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

[/quote]

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:09 am

Friend of mine has a couple of meetings. He's gonna cover half the cost.
Should be within the rules. Right?

Um, no, not really. You're in the chisel charter business ... unless you already were planning to make the trip.

In your case, you are not complying with paragraph (c) - your pax is NOT incidental, your pax is the purpose of the trip (for his meetings). Therefore CAR 401.28 is not applicable. Therefore a 70x OC is required.

Also, at the Tribunal, your defense for paragraph (a) is weak - clearly, you are flying the trip so that you may be "rewarded" with multi-engine time in your logbook, which is obviously extremely valuable to a low-timer.

In the USA, the FAA will not even allow a private pilot to tow gliders "for free" because the FAA's position is that the PPL is being compensated with time in his logbook. Sound familiar?

In your case, since you're splitting the cost of the aircraft, you're being "rewarded" with a lower multi-engine rental rate.

Honestly, why don't flight schools cover this? Isn't one quarter of the written on regs & law?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:44 am

Wow! That I did not know!
I was told that, "so long as you don't get paid for it or earn a profit".

Anyways, it does not look like the trip is gonna happen. No aircraft and the weather won't be up to par.

But the word reward is so vague.When I think of reward, it means something monetary, valuable or material, in return for the services! Not chipping in for the cost?

I think that rule is a bit ridiculous. Let's just say a private pilot rents an airplane with a business partner. They want to fly to Boston for a meeting & he agrees to pay for half the flight cost. That would be illegal?
That's crazy!

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:49 am

What is a 70X OC?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:50 am

Let's just say a private pilot rents an airplane with a business partner. They want to fly to Boston for a meeting & he agrees to pay for half the flight cost. That would be illegal?

No, that would be legit, because the reason the private pilot was going to Boston was because HE was attending the meeting, and his business partner was just tagging along AFTER the PPL had ALREADY decided to make the trip to Boston. So, they can legally share direct expenses incurred.

Does that make sense? Look up the word "incidental" from paragraph (c).

P.S. I'm not Transport - my advice is worth what you paid me for it.

All I can tell you is what I would and would not feel confident arguing at the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court or Federal Court of Appeals, all of which I have argued aviation cases in.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:50 am

the buisness partner thing would not be illegal because the pilot HAS to go too, I disagree with the rule but unless you were already going even if he pays you 10 bucks it is "reward". I however see no difference than your friend needing to go and splitting the cost, then say your grandfather wanting to go on a flight with you and covering the cost, ( i never charged my friends cause it was nice to have company on a cross country i had to make anyways), but i've had uncles and grandparents go up with me and they pay for the hour, not because i charge, because they want to. I see no difference between this and your friend WANTING to cover half, unless you told him "pay half and i'll take you"

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:02 pm

the pilot HAS to go too

Right - whether it is legal or not, hinges upon the PURPOSE of the trip.

If a PPL FIRST decides to go somewhere, his friends can THEN tag along and direct expenses can be shared. That's legal.

But if a PPL is FIRST phoned up by a friend who asks the PPL to fly him to Houston, that's charter, requiring a 70X OC.

See the difference? It can be quite murky. Exactly how you shares expenses, well, just keep it reasonable.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:52 pm

A very concise explanation, Hedley. Thanks. I was just pulling his leg.

Going single-pilot into those destinations in an unfamiliar aircraft, a 'new' pilot, too, might be more excitement than bargained for.

70x means 703, 704 etc.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:38 pm

Well in any case, I will have my commercial in a couple of weeks.
So that won't be a problem anymore or will it?

Hedley, thank you very much for info! I learn something from you all the time & I value your opinion very much!

Cheers,
ICE

GottaFly · Post by **GottaFly** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:02 pm

Actually, the above is a really good question. You'll have your CPL in the next few weeks, but will it still be ok to fly for reward? Yes you will have the CPL, but no you will not be employed by someone with or hold a 70X OC. So is this still fine? Or is there rules for freelance CPL Pilots.... Looks like i've got some research to do on this Rainy No Fly Day.

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:01 pm

With a CPL, one can fly for hire on a private airplane. IE if the owner of an airplane hires you to fly him to a meeting, you can. However, you cannot rent an airplane to bring a friend to a meeting. For that you need an OC.

F

5x5 · Post by **5x5** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:12 pm

Iceman - I don't know you at all, but I think you should carefully re-read the middle sentence of xsbank's last post. And if I'm out of line I apologize.

But for you and all the other newly (or about to be) minted CPLs out there - be very careful. I'm sure you've been very well trained and have done exceptionally well in the familiar confines of the local area you trained in, but don't get too far ahead of yourself too quickly.

Take care, you've got lots of time to learn.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:29 pm

However, you cannot rent an airplane to bring a friend to a meeting. For that you need an OC.

How about if you steal an aircraft?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:22 pm

Well, I guess I some homework to do.
But the rule does say: 401.28(1) The holder of a private pilot licence

Would I be flying for hire? It's more like a fun day trip & a favor.....where my finds would help me pay for the airplane.

How do you get an OC?

5X5
Let's just say I have flown a few hours flying over the state of N.Y, Vermont, Mass & Connecticut.

Don't worry, I can survive outside the local area

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:15 am

THEICEMAN wrote:How do you get an OC?

Very painfully and expensive. First of all; you need an airplane - that is an airplane with your name on the CofR, not an airplane you rent on a hourly basis - then insurance, a mechanic, a chief pilot, director of flight operations, place of business... all that so you can begin life in a cut throat business.

The only way to end up with a million in aviation is to have $10 millions the day you start.

F

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:53 am

Three very good points raised here:

(1) getting a 70x Operating Certificate (OC) is non-trivial. I can't imagine anyone doing it in less than a year, their first time.

(2) just because you have a commercial pilot licence, DOES NOT mean that you can offer a "commercial air service" to the public (see CAR 70x). A commercial air service can be defined as a COMBINATION of a pilot and an aircraft, which is contracted by the public, to fly some passengers or baggage somewhere. When you COMBINE a pilot and an aircraft, then you need an Air Carrier OC. A commercial pilot licence is necessary, but not sufficient, to offer a commercial air service.

As mentioned above, if Joe Schmoe owns an aircraft, he can legally hire and pay you (as a commercial pilot) to fly his aircraft. See the difference? In this case, the public is NOT being offered a "commercial air service" and thus no OC is required. However, CAR 604 may apply, depending upon the aircraft, and whether pax are carried.

An exercise for the reader: variation on the above. Joe Schmoe does not own an aircraft, and is not a pilot. However, he rents an aircraft, and wants to hire and pay you (as a newly minted commercial pilot) to fly it for him. Is an Air Carrier OC required?

(3) finally, the most important point raised above - be careful in your first trip somewhere unfamiliar in an unfamiliar aircraft, esp if the wx is bad, and you just got your instrument rating last week, and you don't know how to operate the autopilot or the IFR GPS in the panel. Notice that the previous sentence sounds like the beginning of an accident report? When you start to experience a sequence of events that sounds ominously like the first paragraph of an accident report, it's time to rethink your plan.

Paper is great, don't get me wrong, you've got to have good paper, but it's never a good idea to crash, even if all your paperwork is perfect.

Remember, skin, tin, ticket - in that order.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:55 pm

finally, the most important point raised above - be careful in your first trip somewhere unfamiliar in an unfamiliar aircraft, esp if the wx is bad, and you just got your instrument rating last week, and you don't know how to operate the autopilot or the IFR GPS in the panel. Notice that the previous sentence sounds like the beginning of an accident report? When you start to experience a sequence of events that sounds ominously like the first paragraph of an accident report, it's time to rethink your plan.

That's what I did last year. First flight after ppl test, I scared the heck out of my CFI! I went to KBTV for the day...it was only 80nm but really do people go there. I guess it's because of the language barriers and customs....
But a beautiful flight over lake Champlain..

What about this scenario. I buy some multi time & want to fly all over the U.S....I plan to go to NYC but my friend asks me to drop him off in KROC for a meeting. That should be o.k?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:32 am

Sure - as long as you had ALREADY decided to make the trip, before he asked if he could tag along.

'effin hippie · Post by **'effin hippie** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:21 pm

ICEMAN - you talk waaaay too much for your experience. People on here are getting to where they automatically shit on you when you talk because of it.
There is nothing you can say which is going to convince anyone you aren't an arrogant twit. However, I think I can speak for everyone when I say please please please keep safety first and your A/C out of the weeds long enough to be embarrassed for your younger self.

Just don't ask these friggin' questions on here....

You are a private pilot taking your buddy for a spin, that's all anyone needs to know. Do your flight planning and customs shit properly and keep your PERSONAL financial arrangements personal.

ef

Hoov · Post by **Hoov** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:22 pm

I disagree Hippie, I think the last thing we need is for ICEMAN to stop asking questions. Its been pointed out that he has a fairly arrogent attitude so the last thing anyone needs is for a know it all to stop asking questions. For the safety of your future students ICEMAN keep asking questions, perhaps it will break your attitude.