In Response to Racist Posts...

[SYT_YYZ]

SYT...are you saying some of the racist comments posted on Avcanada are justifed?

I didnt say that once..
Did you read my post... and miss the parts where I say

"I don't suggest for a minute that racist comments are acceptable. But valid anger is OFTEN the start of them, and you cannot suggest that what is going on is not angering. "

or

"You may not like what is said here, and NO, racism is not right, "

or read it at all??

because my main point was simple.. why spend time here talking about avcanada's problems, when that time can go to helping her own community which she has acknoledged has problems.

not that racism is acceptable.

I have said I am angry and frustrated. BMC. and i have never once posted anything of a racist nature on this forum thank you very much.

i simply said that i am angry and frustrated...

deanna says

"It is one thing to be angry and frustrated, it is quite another to be outright ignorant. "

And that is what I am. Angry and frustated. And im sorry if that somehow makes me approving of racism or outright ignorant.

[JakeYYZ]

I say, "Seize her THESAURUS....!!!!"



[gently, so as not to 'offend']

[Cat Driver]

Another question that has merit in my opinion.

Where does society draw the line when it comes to racism, take the case being discussed here, what exactly is a North American Indian?

How many pure blood Indians are there left in Canada, I would venture to say there would be few as most are X/Breeds like myself so where do I draw the line if I wanted to discriminate against someone else?

[corporate joe]

Another question that has merit in my opinion.

Where does society draw the line when it comes to racism, take the case being discussed here, what exactly is a North American Indian?

Good point. What is an indian race? Clearly there are many differences, which is why it makes it even worst to put anyone and everyone who ressembles the stereotype under the same banner.

[just curious]

For the reactive few, who've been enlivening the thread, (Hedley, Niss and the Professor amongst others) I will try and summarize what I believe to be the most useful bits of Deana's initial post:

1) It isn't necessarily what you say, but how you say it.
2) If you are in fact determined to say something, and know it to be controversial, then be bold enough to attach your own name to it.

I believe this is a pretty reasonable advice.

[Flybaby]

I am not a very elegant writer, but I think a number of posters on this site have hit the nail on the head. Political correctness is bullshit; I believe that most of the questionable comments are spawned from disgust and anger from the countless experiences with dealing with northern communities. Dealing with the flow of dead bodies coming south, cleaning out empty hairspray containers out of the seat back pockets, hearing that the First Nation social services are called white Indians and get spat on in the Rez. Talking to the cops about the insane problems they have to deal with, seeing all the babies with bloody faces being fed Pepsi in a baby bottle, inbread kids, fetal alcohol babies and so many other experiences that scar the mind. And I think one of the biggest frustrations is spawned from the fact that with even all the money in the world no one can think of a political correct to solve the problem. This problem should not be handled with kid gloves, it should be debated openly, and censorship should never be allowed to silence the issue.

[Wilbur]

I have to disagree with Haza's suggestion that Deanna would be better off directing her energy toward taking on a white supremist organization. I've had professional contact/dealings with a number of those types, and the vast majority of them have mental health and/or very low IQ issues, are marginalized in society, and have no real influence on much of anything.

On the other hand, this website has a number of people who may appear to be, or unintentionally are, racist toward aboriginals. But I suspect their attitudes and beliefs are the result of only having superficial exposure to native communities, and no real understanding of the culture, history, and social issues involved.

Perhaps Deanna, you should join in some of the discussions to provide the perspective of an aboriginal person. Information and education will likely reshape many of the opinions and incorrect assumptions held by people using this website.

[SuperchargedRS]

This is how it starts, if someone thinks that avcanada is the next KKK then they need to slap themselves and wake up.

What I see in those links are a few off handed remarks (remember folks this is a pilots board not a librarians board), I think to raise the racisms flag just makes people try to look for a problem that just isnt there, and that in it self can be a problem (one of the contributing factors to censorship, which in my opinion is worse then racism, as I can always just close my browser, but I can un-censorship something).

So if you really want to end racisms I would start with trying to lobby to have ANY mention of race/ethnicity/sex removed from all applications (job, bank, school), next go try to find all the real racist forms, I'm sure you could find them, and try to talk to them (holding my breath on that one). And finnaly put a end to all the reserves as they are racist as I cant join one due to my race, make everyone the same.

Or as ghandi said just be the change you want to be in the world, and live and let live.

TO REITERATE I applaud the general concept of what you are doing, but your barking up the wrong tree.

Oh yea and for the really bad threads LET THEM STAY intact, as for the most part people have a respect for people, and most people will point out the dumb azz racist for what they are and that's GOOD TO SEE.

Lets not turn avcanada into some overly Politically Correct mound of crap

[the_professor]

So please get off your soap -box, with all of its politically correctness, the witch hunt of all that disagrees with your victimization of yourself. If you really want change for your people, whomever that is, look inwards not outwards. Most community problems are because indivduals make poor choices. One can only control ones own actions. OUT.

Here, here.

One of the few brave voices commenting in this thread.

[the_professor]

2) If you are in fact determined to say something, and know it to be controversial, then be bold enough to attach your own name to it.

I believe this is a pretty reasonable advice.

I'm not saying this to be flippant; I'm being serious.

With the exception of an obviously inflammatory matter that this thread is based on, such as calling a spade a spade, who decides what is "controversial"? The mods on this site? Why qualifies an anonymous Internet moderator to decide what I can or cannot read, or what is or is not controversial?

Welcome to China.

[the_professor]

I am not a very elegant writer, but I think a number of posters on this site have hit the nail on the head. Political correctness is bullshit; I believe that most of the questionable comments are spawned from disgust and anger from the countless experiences with dealing with northern communities. Dealing with the flow of dead bodies coming south, cleaning out empty hairspray containers out of the seat back pockets, hearing that the First Nation social services are called white Indians and get spat on in the Rez. Talking to the cops about the insane problems they have to deal with, seeing all the babies with bloody faces being fed Pepsi in a baby bottle, inbread kids, fetal alcohol babies and so many other experiences that scar the mind. And I think one of the biggest frustrations is spawned from the fact that with even all the money in the world no one can think of a political correct to solve the problem. This problem should not be handled with kid gloves, it should be debated openly, and censorship should never be allowed to silence the issue.

Another brave voice.

Flybaby's comments are indisputable, as uncomfortable as they may be.

[Sulako]

With the exception of an obviously inflammatory matter that this thread is based on, such as calling a spade a spade, who decides what is "controversial"? The mods on this site? Why qualifies an anonymous Internet moderator to decide what I can or cannot read, or what is or is not controversial?

Welcome to China.

What qualifies us? We all completed 4-year degrees at Moderator U.

You'll notice that when you post stuff like this, it doesn't get removed. But if you post hateful posts, they do. Hmmm. It's like there's some sort of cause and effect that you obviously haven't figured out yet. Try reading the forum rules and thinking hard about them. Hopefully you'll make some sort of connection eventually.

We have no control over what you can or cannot read, nor do we want that; the internet is a big place and I'm sure if you wanted to read Knight Rider fan-fiction, then there are lots of places you can.

I suggest starting with story #50, it's a doozy.

"Someones destroying TransAms. Will Kitt be next?"

Man, I'm on the edge of my seat...

[DMH]

Wow, you gentlemen were certainly busy through the evening! Thank you for the insights and advice...

There are some comments I HAVE to make as a result of the wise words of wisdom conveyed for my benefit. I'll address point-by-point.

1) Mention of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS... The intent and purpose of my actions were not to impose the useage of overly correct language. So this now becomes a moot point (that is not worth discussing again). The intent and purpose is to have users think more critically of what they post, and be more conscious of other readers who enjoy this great forum. When looking at the term political correctness and grasping its true meaning...I think it becomes quite obvious that I have had no intention of forcing people to use literal terminology such as: follicaly challenged (bald) or intellectually impaired (stupid). Moving on then...

2) "...the victimization of myself." (and I'm paraphrasing...). This is a very strong statement to make concerning something one likely knows little about...in fact I'm positive on this because I haven't indicated at any point in this thread that I feel victimized. I think I can safely assume that the majority of people commenting on this thread do not understand nor relate to being an indigenous person, and therefore cannot grasp the concept of true victimization as indigenous peoples know it. How then can a comment on my experiences, or those of others be made without the most basic of knowledge concerning the topic??

...again, moving on...

3) "...if someone thinks that avcanada is the next KKK then they need to slap themselves and wake up. " This is a doozy...I am 100% positive I have not indicated such. The KKK is a violent, and physically intimidating white-supremicist group...they use acts of terrorism and threats. No one on this forum has done that. Another moot point.

4) WHAT IS A NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN??? Good question. Let me break it down. First of all I am NOT an Indian. I am Nishnawbe (Oji-Cree)...I'm fairly certain that Indians come from a place called India. When the first explorers touched down on the shores of North America, they had been seraching for the northwest passage to India and thought they had found it! So when they first encountered individuals like myself...they mistakenly called us "Indians." Now, if you want to know what constitutes being 'indigenous,' I'll provide my definition, which I think most of my peoples would agree on:

The truth is NO SINGLE DEFINITION EXISTS. Essentially, each indigenous group (that is people who are native to the land, that is, have not immigrated to the continent, but were originally present pre-contact) has it's own term to describe itself...but the one common thread among most of the terms such as Anishinabe (ojibway); Nishnawbe (Oji-Cree), Onkwehonwe (Mohawk), etc..is that these terms all baiscally translate to mean 'people of the land/from the land/First People.'

Truth be told we never experienced blood quantum until the federal government imposed it as means to slowly breed us out and therefore do away with that pesky "...Indian problem" (and that is a quote from Sir John A. McDonald) once and for all! So when questioning the purity of one's indigenousness (is that a word???) you quickly realize it can't really be done. Who I am is all about how I exist in the world, my understanding of the land, language and ceremony.

5) You can be frustrated and angry...but I will stand by my conviction and state that you can be so without denouncing someone else because of cultural or ethnic allocation. And of course you cannot be considered racist for being frustrated and angry! How silly.

So with all this said, I suppose I'd like to share a VERY important observation with everyone. Throughout this discussion thread I have not seen any derogatory terminology used. Yes, certainly there were some bone-head comments made, but everyone who provided comment really minded their p's and q's. Good for you! Everyone who responded seems to have really thought about their responses and been somewhat respectful in their exchanges. Do you know what this means??? I have accomplished something! Miigwetch!

[corporate joe]

I'm not saying this to be flippant; I'm being serious.

With the exception of an obviously inflammatory matter that this thread is based on, such as calling a spade a spade, who decides what is "controversial"? The mods on this site? Why qualifies an anonymous Internet moderator to decide what I can or cannot read, or what is or is not controversial?

Welcome to China.

Let's use the same logic used earlier on. You don't like how it's moderated? Go post your simple minded (and sometimes racist) bs somewhere else. No one is forcing you to accept the rules, you can leave if you don't like them.

PS: comments you have made like "What a bunch of backwards clowns over there. Why would God give such riches to such morons? I don't think I'm the only one who thinks they should go back to riding camels through the desert, eating sand sandwiches. " when commenting about ALL the inhabitants of the middle east,
and comments like "But since our Indians have for decades demonstrated that they are completely incapable of taking care of themselves, maybe we should take the Australian approach, complete with beefed up policing and enforcement. "when commenting about ALL canadian aboriginals.

Now to all the people who said, what's wrong with debating a social condition of a people if we are stating facts, do you see the difference?
That's not a debate or a fact, that's a simplistic opinion based on ignorant beliefs. That's what's innaceptable. That's where it's no longer about being PC. Commenting on the reserves and their problems is one thing, ignorant statements like the above are another.

No disctinction made about any of the differences. Just a generalisation based on race (if you can even call that a race). That's your definition of calling a spade a spade? It's more like calling a deck of cards a spade. That is pure simple minded ignorant generalizing, based on intolerance and a small weak mind incapable of seeing any form of nuance, and incapable of any form of understanding that it's not all black and white.

Just because you are so simple minded it does not mean the world around you is as simplistic. However when your idiocy expresses itself through intolerance and ignorance, and when race is a basis for your comments, you are in my opinion stepping over the line.

If I wasn't such a firm believer in freedom of speech, and almost impossible to offend, I'd push this even further, and say you are purposely spreading inflamatory and ignorant posts. One thing is for sure though, for someone who has nothing to do with this industry, your presence on these boards is void of any positive contribution.

[chu me]

Dear Deanna;

Welcome to Avcanada. I have tried for a long time to change the attitudes of people on this web site with logic and facts, but it seems as though these attitudes towards our aboriginal brothers in the north will always persist here. When you correct one misconception ( such as tax free status for all natives ) with factual information ,its like a fart in a thunderstorm, no one will hear you . Although it seems like people are saying good for you, in a few days they will post some other mis- information and stir the pot again, it never ends here!

Beem me up Scotty! No intelligent life forms here!

[flyinphil]

Every poster here chu-me or did you inadvertantly generalize? Generalization is ofter mistaken for racism and sometimes it is the basis for racism.

Certainly, anyone who has flown the north will have been exposed to indigenous people and will have witnessed much of what has been mentioned previously. Does an observation based on that make them a racist or just guilty misusing a generalization?

Every race I have come across has their share of drug and alcohol dependent members. The indigenous people of Canada are no exception but nor are they the rule. Making a generalized statement about aboriginal people based on what you see at Portage and Main is like doing the same for caucasions based on carnie workers.

That being said, the term "Indian" to many "whites" is not a derogatory term although it is interpreted that way by many. When we talk of the term originating with early settlers and sticking until recent years, the precedent to its use is deeply rooted. I am not saying it is correct as we all evolve. Even in my formative years, "Indian" was the term of choice, even by the Department of Indian Affairs.

Tolerance is a two way street and unfortunately a very long one. Let me know when you find the end!

Good debating all!

[Hedley]

Tolerance is a two way street

um, no, it isn't. The essence of political correctness is that some racism is "good" and some racism is "bad", which I personally find extremely offensive.

For example, black people will call each other "nigger" all the time - ever turned on a TV? But white people cannot call a black person "nigger" for fear of being labelled racist. White people are so cowed by the powerful forces of political correctness, that they are even afraid to speak the word "nigger" which simply is latin for black - they cowardly call it the "N-word" to avoid offending the powerful forces of politically correctness. But that's absurd - are we allowed to use the word "Nigeria" for the country in Africa, or have the powerful forces of the politically correct outlawed that, too?

But black people say terribly offensive and racist things about each other (and white people) but that's "good racism" according to the politically correct.

Similarly, Indians in Canada are extremely racist towards whites, but that's "good racism" according to the politically correct here

[C-GGGQ]

technically the latin is one g not two, and then you have the spanish negro, french negre, etc. also a mispronounciation of Niger (as in the replublic of) so the slaves they took from were Nigers, but instead of the soft G the hard form of the letter was mistakenly used.

[Hedley]

What about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro

That a pretty racist name. Should we call it the "N-mountain" to avoid offending the politically correct here?

[Tubthumper]

....I think she forgot to read this before clicking to open this forum, or chose not to. Deanna this is for you in case you didn't see it:

This forum is for political debate, random thoughts, and everything else that just doesn't seem to fit in the normal forums. THIS FORUM MAY BE FOUND OFFENSIVE TO SOME READERS. PLEASE DO NOT ENTER IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED. We reserve the right to remove messages that we deem inappropriate or posted in poor taste.

No one can say she wasn't warned. Deanna, I know of someone who worked in China, and was regularly sneered at, spat on etc,.... by locals who did that because he wasn't Chinese....no...didn't look or sound Chinese But he's not ranting on this forum, nor making his plight known publically in Chinese banks, or anywhere else and he certainly isn't convinced that the entire country is like that because of a few people he had randomly met in the bank. What is it you're really doing here on the forum? I read stuff here on the forum all the time that I don't like/agree with. Many times the subject title of the post is enough to keep me out of reading any of the replies. But I don't try and critiscize (sp?) everyone/anyone who took part in the discussion when they could have stayed out, didn't, and got offended somewhere in the process. I know a dead horse when I beat one.

There is a particular casino south of Saskatoon that is native-owned and run. Guess what, they only hire natives, and at one time made it publically known. That means no one who looks/sounds of Japanese, German, English, Indian (yes..... from INDIA), Pakistan, Russian, Scottish, or Newfanese (sorry, just had too ) will get a job there, no matter how much they need the job, no matter how destitute they might be, even if they have lived longer in Canada than any of the young natives that will get those jobs.

Do you think that's right? Answer YES or NO..... nothing else, and no 'slants' or '...buts' to your answer. I won't critiscize your YES, or NO.

If you say YES, then you're no better than those you are critiscizing on these forums for posting what they are free to think, whether they are hiding behind an alias or not.

If you say NO, then right letters to the Saskatchewan INDIAN (yes, that's their title) Gaming Authority and the Casino and voice your opinion and see where you get with that.....best of luck to you.

But be warned that when you post the results from that can of worms on these forums, you'll be offended by many of the posters/responses here just becaaaaaause you forgot to read this again:

This forum is for political debate, random thoughts, and everything else that just doesn't seem to fit in the normal forums. THIS FORUM MAY BE FOUND OFFENSIVE TO SOME READERS. PLEASE DO NOT ENTER IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED. We reserve the right to remove messages that we deem inappropriate or posted in poor taste.

Ok, (...sigh) enough of this....... I do have a life......and the pictures to prove it!

Pat Gould
http://www.pbase.com/patgould

[Sulako]

Gosh Hedley, I had no idea you wanted to use the N-word so badly in casual conversation. That must be a real setback for your ability to properly express yourself.

Oh wait, here you go being a redneck. Again:

"But black people say terribly offensive and racist things about each other (and white people) but that's "good racism" according to the politically correct.

Similarly, Indians in Canada are extremely racist towards whites, but that's "good racism" according to the politically correct here"

Really? All black people and all people from India think like that? Really? You must be omniscient. Or a moron. Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can read people's minds.

I'm not familiar with the term "good racism", feel free to explain...

[Hedley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

[Cat Driver]

4) WHAT IS A NORTH AMERICAN INDIAN??? Good question. Let me break it down. First of all I am NOT an Indian. I am Nishnawbe (Oji-Cree)...I'm fairly certain that Indians come from a place called India. When the first explorers touched down on the shores of North America, they had been seraching for the northwest passage to India and thought they had found it! So when they first encountered individuals like myself...they mistakenly called us "Indians." Now, if you want to know what constitutes being 'indigenous,' I'll provide my definition, which I think most of my peoples would agree on:

Let me help you out here Deanna, that is someone like me who by accident of birth has enough genes in me from the people who were in North America before the white men came here to qualify for taxpayers handouts from the Canadian taxpayer and handed out by the " Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. "

However I have chosen to never accept a cent from that racist department of the Canadian government.

And just so you and I understand each other I post my thoughts on this forum using my real name for the simple reason that I am comfortable with who I am...all parts of me both Indian and white.

I personally think that people who post on such volatile subjects should at least post in the open instead of with real PC made up names like Chu Me, because I consider Chu Me to be a very poor start to a valuable conversation...kinda shows the level of IQ of the poster in my humble opinion.

Be they Indian or white.

[DMH]

If you read through my postings it is fairly clear to see why I am on this forum. Therefore, I will not reiterate.

Now to answer one question about indigenous employers/business owners hiring indigenous employees: Yes, I feel that this is justified. Why? Refer to Stats Canada and understand what 'marginalization' is. Discover the excessive unemployment rates on reserve and that indigenous peoples live well below even the national poverty level (which is horrible to begin with!)...Indigenous peoples were herded onto reserves (Apartheid anyone..?) and left with little to nothing for economic prosperity/sustainability. So when a community introduces a profitable venture in a place that likely experienced an unemployment rate of around 80% before hand...and the business is on the reserve...is it so unreasonable that they should want to enjoy that prosperity as a community through employment??? Pretty straight forward I think. Once upon a time not so many decades ago indigenous peoples were not allowed to leave the reserve to work even if they wanted to...and if they did, were not allowed to return. This is something referred to as 'enfranchisement.' Now we generate employment within our communities rife with poverty and we're expected to out source the work??? That just doesn't make sense from an economic self-sufficiency standpoint...from a sustainability standpoint. I would say the same for any community that implemented a money-making venture despite their ethnicity. If they can experience the benefits and contribute positively, I say have at it!

I find that once again, there is little legitimacy to the new onslaught of comments. Cleary a recipe for perpetual ignorance has appeared: satisfaction with one's own opinions despite their inaccuracy and contentment with one's own knowledge, despite it's limited base.

Everyone should be terrified by this kind of thing! There is nothing more frightening than conscientious stupidity.

The forum rules are as follows:
-any post complained about will be reviewed. This normally will mean that the topic will be pulled and discussed by the moderators.
-any post that contains:
abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws may result in the topic be removed and the user banned.

This includes any personal attack, pornography, or nudity.

_________________
Regards,

Webmaster AvCanada


btw...Montenegro is pronounced: MON-TAY-NAY-GROW.

[C-GGGQ]

if the unemployment rate is as bad as you state (80%) then is it really a well though out to build a casino? where people waste MORE money seeing how you've stated everyone on reserves live well below poverty levels

Discover the excessive unemployment rates on reserve and that indigenous peoples live well below even the national poverty level (which is horrible to begin with!)