In Response to Racist Posts...

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:01 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
corporate joe wrote:[

No what I am suggesting, is that your comments were based on ignorant beliefs, rather than observable facts. Let me remind you the definition of racism: 1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

the problem with that theory is races ARE different, you can tell a persons race by their skeleton, we are put together differently. As i stated earlier Africans have longer achillies tendons, Asians as a rule are shorter, and have little to no body hair. Its not racist, they are proven scientific facts.

Define African? Are you saying the above conclusions, or any conclusion for that matter applies to Marocans as well as Nigerians? What about white South Africans? Or do you mean Black people? If you meant black people, what about the differences in tribes? Look at it this way: could you draw the same conclusion about white people? Are blond hair germans, red head Irishmen, and dark haired sicilians of the same race? Could you draw the same conclusion about Europpeans, as you just did about Africans? Some black Africans known as pigmes (and black is an arbitrary color, because if you look closely you will see differences in skin tone and even physical traits) are physically smaller than their counterparts, and even smaller than some Asian "tribes" (they measure 4 feet). Where do they fall in the above statement you made? They are black and from Africa, but do not match the stereotype. Just because you don't see the differences, it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Also, no race is pure. Even if you were to make distinctions between the different "tribes" within a "skin color race" (I use that term for lack of a better one) would you not find someonewhere in their gene line a mix at some point in history? These are not horses, these are human beings. Races aren't as medically defined as you would like them to be. The reality is that it is VERY difficult to draw any conclusions that are factual based on "race", because there is really no such thing (I'd be very curious to see where you take the supposed above fact from). "Africans" is a category you made in your head, and categories can be made either by skin color, hair color, continent they were born on, religion etc... Human beings make these categories in their mind, because it is an instictive reaction to try and understand things. That's where your rational mind should come in and say, wait a minute, can I really make this arbitrary association?

Even if some conclusions, like the ones you mentioned can be drawn (and I still challenge it), this definitely has nothing to do with traits of character. That's where some of the posts went wrong. Environment accounts for traits of character much more than any genetics. There are many examples of twins separated at birth, with similar genetic codes, that grow up to be completely different individuals.

And that's where mistakes are made. People categorize a group in their head, and then EXTEND that conclusion to all members of that group. Doing so overlooks many facts, and simplifies a complex reality.

Now some people even go as far as becoming intolerant of the other groups they have categorized, because they fear what they don't understand. And racism and over-simplified categories do not promote understanding, they draw walls between groups of people.

We all know where that leads.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:09 pm

Page 7 of a thread?

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:10 pm

I chose the word Africans, as opposed to Black people, since the PC term is African Americans, but obviously they are not all americans, and i was not about to state americans, canadians, british, etc. I agree even different "white" people are different races, it is very easy for a medical examiner to determine, germanic, or nordic, however we all get lumped in as white. I say if we are going to be this ridiculous about race, lets go all the way, i no longer wish to be Caucasian I am Celtic. If we can't lump all the different tribes of first nations peoples as natives, then you can't lump us all a whites either.

erics2b · Post by **erics2b** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:14 pm

Deanna wrote:Montenegro is pronounced: MON-TAY-NAY-GROW.

When you realize that you cannot defend a certain allegation, don't be so incompetent as to bring in pronounciations, you DUM-ACE

You see what I did their

??

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:19 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:I chose the word Africans, as opposed to Black people, since the PC term is African Americans, but obviously they are not all americans, and i was not about to state americans, canadians, british, etc. I agree even different "white" people are different races, it is very easy for a medical examiner to determine, germanic, or nordic, however we all get lumped in as white. I say if we are going to be this ridiculous about race, lets go all the way, i no longer wish to be Caucasian I am Celtic. If we can't lump all the different tribes of first nations peoples as natives, then you can't lump us all a whites either.

That's only a partial response to my post. No we can not be lumped as whites only, that is true. That's actually my whole point. When you look closely at any arbitrary groups created, they all have significant flaws preventing almost any conclusion from being drawn based solely on one factor (race or religion, or place of birth). That's why I keep saying it's simplifying a more complex reality. That's why facts get confused as opinions, and that's why it needs to be denounced, because some people use this as a basis for intolerance, thinking they can apply their own conclusions to their own made up groups.

One thing is for sure though, you can not "lump" behavioural attributes (that are not scientific, because they are based on personal observation and not scientific fact) to one member of a group, and then extend that conclusion to another member of that same group, based purely on the premise that they belong to that group (especially since the group can not be clearly defined, it is again subjective).

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:40 pm

You see what I did their ??

Well at least she's mastered how to use "there" and "their".

Flybaby · Post by **Flybaby** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:46 pm

"All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color." Bulworth (1998)
I love that quote.

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:55 pm

You know when I first read the complaint that was forwarded to us in regards to the innitial posts in question I was contemplating leaving this site. As I saw it I was also being called a racist because I failed to pull derogitary comments made in here by people whom I have no control over. All this due to the fact that I was too busy over the holidays to baby sit this site or to read the hundreds of posts that are written here every day. I do the best that I can with my limited aviation knowledge.

I could not have the job that I have in my real life if I were an intollerant person. Fact is, I am disgusted on a regular basis by some of the goings on that I am party to through work and it knows no bounderies. There is no one race that I have encountered that comes out worse than the other and I have been at this for 28 + years. I do my job and try not to stereotype anyone.

I tend to look at the reserves as a terrible mistake made by government long before my Grandparents immigrated here. It is a common mistake made throughout the world (Australia springs to mind) Hmmmm same colonists. Had we not put natives on reserves we would not be having this discussion at all, but that ship has long sailed. In my mind Canada is an eclectic blend of too many cultures to list and as a result is one of the most respected countries in the world. We have our problems and the native issue is one that comes to mind quickly as is terrorism, B.C. bud, homelessness, global warming, ect....
To Deanna, I am very sorry that what was offensive to you wasn't pulled long before it was, just so you know, it was also offensive to me.
Walls are very commonplace in history whether real or imagined, my opinions are my own and I sometimes build walls to protect myself from others whom have an opinion that is opposite but for the most part I do try and have an open mind.

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:22 pm

Well I have to say that any assumptions made concerning the why's and when's of my actions are completely out of place in this thread. No one save myself and those contacted know what transpired....I will say that I received messages from 2 AVCanada reps. the following morning offering apology...which I sincerely appreciated. I knew that I was angry, but that it would be far more constructive to initiate discussion then go off half-cocked for spite. That is wrong.

Don't make assumptions about my choices.

This thread is obviously a much needed discussion. We need only look at the number of views and posts... It is terrible that some individuals will reap satisfaction from derailing it. Let's please stay on point and make some tangible ins where our thoughts are concerned. I have read some really good arguments, I am interested and intrigued by the positive direction this can go. Therefore, from this point, I'm paying no attention to anything that's purpose is to deligitimize what this thread is REALLY about.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:41 pm

Sulako wrote:You take the lazy approach and don't bother adding any caveats to your blanket pronouncements. That's how stuff like this starts.

Does anyone really believe that in this day and age, in a country like ours, that anyone could actually believe that every single person of an identifiable group (black, indian, male, female) has exactly the same characteristics in all cases?

I certainly don't think that every single person is included in a statement. But if the overwhelming majority of a particular group comply with the label, then I'll use the label. Only a fool would allow themselves to interpret it 100% literally.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:43 pm

corporate joe wrote:the definition of racism: 1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

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Beware, all ye who enter here -- Louisiana (and especially New Orleans) has, in my not-so-humble opinion, the best cuisine in the world. However, it isn't always what you'd call healthy ("It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat ... it's da batta!"), and some of the dishes are probably not for people obsessed with watching their intake of fat. But dawlin' ... talk about good!

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the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:48 pm

corporate joe wrote:Define African? Are you saying the above conclusions, or any conclusion for that matter applies to Marocans as well as Nigerians? What about white South Africans? Or do you mean Black people? If you meant black people, what about the differences in tribes? Look at it this way: could you draw the same conclusion about white people? Are blond hair germans, red head Irishmen, and dark haired sicilians of the same race? Could you draw the same conclusion about Europpeans, as you just did about Africans?

You do love the sound of your own voice, don't you?

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:55 pm

the_professor wrote:
corporate joe wrote:the definition of racism: 1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Try this on for size, if you think that definition makes sense, and was not designed to support politcal correctness:

Blacks are better marathon runners, better sprinters, and better basketball players.

Prove me wrong. Show me the statistics that disprove my statement above.

You're kidding right? You just made a statement out of nowhere, yet I have prove to you it's wrong? It works the other way around. The burden of proof goes to the person making the statement. You truly are completely clueless.

And if I read it right, according to you racism is an invention to protect political correctness. So to you, there is nothing wrong with acting in the way described by the above definition? Wow.

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:00 pm

the_professor wrote:
Sulako wrote:You take the lazy approach and don't bother adding any caveats to your blanket pronouncements. That's how stuff like this starts.
Does anyone really believe that in this day and age, in a country like ours, that anyone could actually believe that every single person of an identifiable group (black, indian, male, female) has exactly the same characteristics in all cases?

I certainly don't think that every single person is included in a statement. But if the overwhelming majority of a particular group comply with the label, then I'll use the label. Only a fool would allow themselves to interpret it 100% literally.

The groups you use are arbitrary inventions you fabricate. They have no value, neither do the blanket statements you apply to the members withing the groups. Especially if you base it on your personal observations.

SYT_YYZ · Post by **SYT_YYZ** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:10 pm

If you feel so strongly about the lack of education on these reserves, relate it to their inability to leave, why waste your time here trying to shut down a site that, granted, isnt perfect. why not Redirect your letters to Gov't.. or go out and help the situation on these reserves.

Also, fear of being judged in my opinion, is not a particularly great reason, to me that is CHOOSING to be a victim..letting someone elses opinion of you rule your choice of how you live your life. Canada is not a WHITE country. Ever been down town to Toronto? Vancouver? Plenty of different cultures out there, from what I can see, and they choose to live their lives the way they want to.

What about the black slaves of the south? Have they all stayed in their "comfort zone" or in this case what they had been oppressed to because they didnt want to be judged? These slaves, I doubt were comfortable walking into a once segregated resturant.. what about rosa parks who refused to be a victim when told to give up her seat on the bus to a white passenger. Did these people not face judgement???

If you are so tired of these things, then why have your people not stepped out and made their lives what they want of them?

You cannot blame the white man for your peoples fear. Or for the fact that there are no great roadways to more southern regions. What about the men and women who take refuge here in canada, escape from their countries, have to leave their loved ones, to seek a better life for themselves. For a lot of them this means loosing all they have, but the clothes on their backs, learning new languages etc.

I wont deny it. I think that everyone has the ability to make their own way in life, and frankly all it depends on and comes down to is how bad you really want it. Im sorry if you see me as a racist for that. I dont think that I am. I would respect any man (woman child whatever) who made his way through this world, and overcame what he had to to be what he wanted. And pity the same man if he believed that his control over his own life had something to do with someone elses actions or words against him. White, Black, Blue, Purple, Brown, Yellow or Green.. Now if that makes me racist fine.. but I think my beliefes have little to do with the cultural backround one has, and more with the actions and attitude. AT NO TIME have I suggested that ALL aboriginals harbour a victim like attitude, I am saying that I feel sorry for the ones that do, be it 1 or 1000 of them.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:27 pm

SYT YYZ I believe a lot of the frustration shown here is because this is an aviation forum.

Thus there are many pilots, engineers, and other aviation people here who get overwhelmed by what they see when flying in the north.

The poverty and the never changing abuse of the system by those in power on the reserves condoned by and financed by the government just becomes to much to ignore....therefore you get the attitude you see by far to many here on Avcanada.

It has been like this ever since I can remember and I can see no real hope it will change.

Think about this for a moment.

When I was water bombing in Manitoba many years ago there was a big outcry about kids sniffing Av Gas on a reserve...the Chief of the band complained to the government that the government should supply lead free gas....

.....how do you expect anything to really change with that kind of mindset?

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:45 pm

Deena: What do you think about the severe racism encountered by white teachers and workers on reserves? I can't count the number of teachers I know that left the reserves because they got tired of being called "you fucking white bitch".

This most definitely isn't a one way street.

I honestly believe the people on here vent because they don't know what else to do. It's no different than hospital workers using black humour to deal with their day. Would I be pissed to hear a nurse make light of a situation one of my loved ones was in. I think you're in much the same boat. Some of the stuff that I've seen on the reserves just doesn't exist down south. So you're talking with people who are experiencing something that is new to them. Not everyone can deal with flying a 14yr old girl that was gang raped by her family to mental hospital so she can be put on suicide watch. While I'll agree that not every user on this forum has such innocent issues, it certainly does exist. I don't know of anyone who's flown in the north that wasn't shocked and appalled at the conditions and some of the people that lived there.

You say don't judge the people or the reserves because most of us haven't lived the life. I say don't judge the reactions of people that are experiencing the glory of it all for the first time. It's obviously not something that you can speak on from experience either.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:54 pm

You say don't judge the people or the reserves. I say don't judge the reactions of people that are experiencing the glory of it all for the first time.

And the revulsion only gets worse the longer one has to deal with these pathetic ghettos that are a stain on the Canadian landscape....

..everyone suffers in one way or another in this mess.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:48 pm

The only thing I can say about these 7 pages is, I don't know what to say.

Some day, people will start treating each other with respect, ALL people. Some day people will start LISTENING to other people, all people.

Very few of you seem to listen particularly well, but get indignant when you're not listened to. Funny how that works isn't it? Until this changes, racist opinions among others, won't change.

There, I thought of something.

stl

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:30 pm

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:31 pm

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:36 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Thus there are many pilots, engineers, and other aviation people here who get overwhelmed by what they see when flying in the north.

They get overwhelmed by the north, or they see the reality of the north?

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:57 pm

Professor, I think you'd be very surprised to know how many of the jumping up and down folks have been there and done that. Some even have the t-shirt. You come off looking like an extremist when you reference something like Saskatoon. Have you ever been there?

splitpin · Post by **splitpin** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:00 pm

To all you bleeding hearts out there, including you Deanna, Go and work up north (or in Africa , India or the U.S.A.) for ONE year and come back and tell me your opinions have not had a radical shift!!! If you have not LIVED and WORKED in these areas you are not even remotely qualified to comment on them.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:01 pm

Deanna wrote:If you read through my postings it is fairly clear to see why I am on this forum. Therefore, I will not reiterate.

Now to answer one question about indigenous employers/business owners hiring indigenous employees: Yes, I feel that this is justified. Why? Refer to Stats Canada and understand what 'marginalization' is. Discover the excessive unemployment rates on reserve and that indigenous peoples live well below even the national poverty level (which is horrible to begin with!)...Indigenous peoples were herded onto reserves (Apartheid anyone..?) and left with little to nothing for economic prosperity/sustainability. So when a community introduces a profitable venture in a place that likely experienced an unemployment rate of around 80% before hand...and the business is on the reserve...is it so unreasonable that they should want to enjoy that prosperity as a community through employment??? Pretty straight forward I think. Once upon a time not so many decades ago indigenous peoples were not allowed to leave the reserve to work even if they wanted to...and if they did, were not allowed to return. This is something referred to as 'enfranchisement.' Now we generate employment within our communities rife with poverty and we're expected to out source the work??? That just doesn't make sense from an economic self-sufficiency standpoint...from a sustainability standpoint. I would say the same for any community that implemented a money-making venture despite their ethnicity. If they can experience the benefits and contribute positively, I say have at it!

That makes you a hypocrite. Discrimination is either right or it's wrong; there is no grey area based on historical wrongs. If there were, the marginalization of indigenous peoples is acceptable because the Iroquois nation amongst others, tortured and killed white missionaries in the 1500's and 1600's. You can't have it both ways.

And nobody is expecting you to outsource work; just hire the best person for the job and the colour of their skin be damned. To do anything else is racism and you're opposed to that, remember?