Dramatic CL415 low level water drop in California

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:58 am

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e4b_1193018591

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:55 am

I'm going to need some expert explanation here. Is that how she's done, AND...Whose machine is that?

bigredone · Post by **bigredone** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:56 am

Looks like a PQ machine as they have a contract in California(CDF or County?). The run looked fun if not a little low but normal for the Quebecers. Strong x-wind and decending terrain so I can see why.

Jim la Jungle · Post by **Jim la Jungle** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:47 am

It seems to be Quebec 240. I have worked with these guys and they're the shit. This is one of the most exciting drop I've seen. Simply amazing!

Mets du rudder viarge

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:48 am

T240 and T243 are Call sign Quebec 1 & 2. They're leased to Los Angeles County Fire every winter and fall for the past 15 years or so. The Americans tanker industry hates it when Canadians go down there.

The drop height looks normal for an into wind drop. The load bunches up to a thicker coverage level when dropping into wind. It works real well when dealing with hot spots as in this video.

http://www.fire.lacounty.gov/AirWildlan ... erscoopers

http://wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/cl415.html

As this artical points out it's all bull shit and politics down there when it comes to fire fighting.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:22 am

Thanks for the insight. Nice to see the 415 making a difference south.

It's amazing to see the difference in approaches to fire supression between the two countries. I've heard some pretty scary things from folks responsible for the maintenance of the american tanker fleet. Those guys work hard, but what they are given to work with leaves something to be desired on those worn out birds.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:32 am

It's impressive flying. That is so low. I wasn't aware of such a low drop and nailing the fire.

It's neat the see the foot work on the rudder.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:52 am

Yup Driving Rain, I agree just another well placed drop....routine stuff, hell he even had the X/wind factored in.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:54 am

Cat or Driving Rain

Is it really turbulent flying along those ridges, with rising heat and mechanical turbulent, coupled with such close proximity to trees and buidlings? You must really climb after dropping a load.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:18 am

Is it really turbulent flying along those ridges, with rising heat and mechanical turbulent, coupled with such close proximity to trees and buidlings?

Sometimes it can get real turbulent, but there are many things you can use to judge how bad it may be, and sometimes you just don't even try to do a drop.

You must really climb after dropping a load.

Yes, losing around 10,000 pounds in a second or so does give you an upward push so to speak.

Looking at that drop inside a built up area reminded me of a drop I did many moons ago right inside of the city in Santiago Chile...there was a fire next to the US embassy and they had me drop a load of water on it....real fun.

AV8OR · Post by **AV8OR** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:23 am

Quote from Wildfirenews.com

"Had the L.A. County supervisors utilized our aircraft instead of the SuperScoopers, L.A. County would have saved $1.2 million each year," says Wells. "Water-bombing aircraft must drop the water and foam on the seat of the fire, just like a firefighter dragging a hose line up into the back bedroom of a two-story house where the fire is. Retardant tankers make an indirect attack adjacent to the fire; they seldom are required to drop on the actual fire. A piston-powered PBY, though, does effectively drop water on the actual fire. The CL-415 and 215 rarely can in our area, because unlike the PBY, the wing loading is different. The CL-415 cannot safely slow down to drop accurately in high winds and turbulence."

It looked accurate to me...

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:28 am

bmc wrote:Cat or Driving Rain

Is it really turbulent flying along those ridges, with rising heat and mechanical turbulent, coupled with such close proximity to trees and buidlings? You must really climb after dropping a load.

Yes, it's quite turblent but don't forget the plane is heavy between 41,000 to 47,000 lbs prior to the drop. That helps reduce the bumps. The aircraft looses up to 13,500 lbs instantly. This can be converted to altitude if the pilot wishes. Most drops the pilots just apply full power and a slight forward or down elevator to compensate for the upward moment after the load is pickled.
The aircraft has a massive and effective powered rudder with an automatic trim compensator.(RTC) We use it to sometimes skid the aircraft and load where it needs to be.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:34 am

Do any of you guys have time on both the Cat and the CL airplanes? Just curious to know the differences in them, recognizing one was purpose built and the other is a conversion.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:44 am

AV8OR wrote:Quote from Wildfirenews.com

"Had the L.A. County supervisors utilized our aircraft instead of the SuperScoopers, L.A. County would have saved $1.2 million each year," says Wells. "Water-bombing aircraft must drop the water and foam on the seat of the fire, just like a firefighter dragging a hose line up into the back bedroom of a two-story house where the fire is. Retardant tankers make an indirect attack adjacent to the fire; they seldom are required to drop on the actual fire. A piston-powered PBY, though, does effectively drop water on the actual fire. The CL-415 and 215 rarely can in our area, because unlike the PBY, the wing loading is different. The CL-415 cannot safely slow down to drop accurately in high winds and turbulence."

It looked accurate to me...

Yes the author of that statement owns a PBY that he wanted to rent to LA county. I suppose we should go back to horse drawn engines because hay burners are cheaper too. How about we send our Navy to a war zone in Tall wooden ships because they're real cheap to run too.
Not to dis a PBY and get Cat all stirred up.

It was a fine plane when they rolled off production lines in the 1930's and 40's 60+ years ago. A 415 can run circles around a PBY or a Super Cat. I know, I've flown both although I never fire bombed with a Cat.
And speaking of wing loading the 215 and 415 ulitlize a special NACA 4417 that was optimized for it's primary mission.
The optimum drop speed for a 415 is between 100 and 105 kts. They can drop at up to 129kts if need be.

auto4 · Post by **auto4** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:39 am

The film was taken on the Aqua Dulce fire near Santa Clarita in LA county. You don't see it on the film but the drop was made behind a series of homes.Drop speed was 105 kts at eight of 30 feet going slightly uphill.The reason the drop was made that low is because of the high winds that would have drifted the drop big time.

Scooping point was Palmdale reservoir about 12 miles from the fire.The 2 Quebec machines were Q240 and Q245, they usualy fly in pairs and operate out of Van Nuys airport.That is where the crews are posted, the aircraft are already loaded with 10 000 of water and are usually airborne in less than 5 minutes.With winds in excess of 50 knots it was quite turbulent in those canyons.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:33 am

I think the movie 'Always' pretty much sums it up perfectly. :p

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:25 am

auto4 wrote:The film was taken on the Aqua Dulce fire near Santa Clarita in LA county. You don't see it on the film but the drop was made behind a series of homes.Drop speed was 105 kts at eight of 30 feet going slightly uphill.The reason the drop was made that low is because of the high winds that would have drifted the drop big time.

Scooping point was Palmdale reservoir about 12 miles from the fire.The 2 Quebec machines were Q240 and Q245, they usualy fly in pairs and operate out of Van Nuys airport.That is where the crews are posted, the aircraft are already loaded with 10 000 of water and are usually airborne in less than 5 minutes.With winds in excess of 50 knots it was quite turbulent in those canyons.

auto4,
Everyone in the Tanker community in Canada is proud of the job you guys are doing. I tuned in to the fire briefing and I understand you guys were up and at it at 7:00am this morning. The conditions of 50 kt + winds will make for a long day. Stay safe my friends

AEROMONKEY · Post by **AEROMONKEY** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:05 pm

Was watching CNN today and they we're following Quebec Tankers 240 and 242 live from a news chopper.. as they did their water drops ...nice to see! although they kept refering to them as C130's!!

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:33 pm

so why aren't the Ontario boys headed down there to pitch in? More Political interference? maybe the locals don't want to look bad next to a couple of canucks and their yellowbirds..

Cheers

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:50 pm

Anyone see the DC-10 do a retardant drop today on the news? Was very impressive indeed.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:53 pm

Steve.................................maybe ..............................we.............................great..................water.............bomb..........good.
this reply message has been edited by Aviation an Fire Management Ontario. That's what we do. Where is Californeye A again?
Maps, I need Maps, anyone seen the Maps.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:08 pm

.....and a DC-10 drop:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a7_1193165376

jspitfire · Post by **jspitfire** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Very impressive for sure.

Just heard on the news today that the Martin Mars are being readied to head down tomorrow. They had both been packed up and put away for the winter, but are being taken out to help with these huge fires. Not sure if it is just one or both going down.

auto4 · Post by **auto4** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:24 am

Those fires will slow down in the next couple a days, a flow of air from the ocean will be enough to help the crews to win the battle. As for bringing more airplane,as for yesterday,no other aircraft were requested from our organisation.

I was proud to be there as a Canadian,to show our neighbour that we can be a greath help. But it would have been great to have the rest of my fellow canadians in their 215-415,Mars and Air Tankers to demonstrate the professionalism throuhout Canada of our pilots and ame.

North of You · Post by **North of You** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:41 am

Ohh when I see that sort of flying it just makes me want to rip of this dam white shirt and apply. Good on you boys, your making us proud.

And as for the Yanks and their grumblings. I guess they just don't like foreigners flying over their country trying to lend a hand. Just imagine how the Iraqis must feel.