Dramatic CL415 low level water drop in California
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
-
North Shore
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Quote from Wildfirenews.com
"Had the L.A. County supervisors utilized our aircraft instead of the SuperScoopers, L.A. County would have saved $1.2 million each year," says Wells. "Water-bombing aircraft must drop the water and foam on the seat of the fire, just like a firefighter dragging a hose line up into the back bedroom of a two-story house where the fire is. Retardant tankers make an indirect attack adjacent to the fire; they seldom are required to drop on the actual fire. A piston-powered PBY, though, does effectively drop water on the actual fire. The CL-415 and 215 rarely can in our area, because unlike the PBY, the wing loading is different. The CL-415 cannot safely slow down to drop accurately in high winds and turbulence."
Also here is the response that was quoted in the same article:
Al Hymers works for the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources; he's based in Dryden, Ontario. He says there's no comparison between a CL-415 and other water-scooping aircraft. "Since I have flown both, I can assure you that a PBY does not even come close to fitting into the same league as a CL-415," says Hymers. "About the only thing they have in common is they scoop water. There is absolutely no way a PBY could handle stronger winds and rougher water than a CL-415. Whether or not the CL-415 can do the job in California is another question. I don't see why they couldn't — they do the job in similar terrain and climate all over the world — Italy, Turkey, France, Croatia, Spain, Greece, Mexico, western Canada — why would California be the only place they can't do the job? We all know that there are certain times and certain conditions when nothing will do the job."
"I have seen a CL-415, in 3.8 hours flight time, that ferried out 45 minutes, dropped 66 loads (over 100,000 gallons) and ferried back in 45 minutes," he adds. "I doubt there is any aircraft, scooper or long-term hauler, that could match these numbers. We do this kind of performance on a regular basis with the CL-415. We have had drops as high as 86 (over 130,000 gallons delivered) in one four-hour mission. I think even the Mars would have a hard time matching these numbers. As for the cost of operating these aircraft, if L.A. County is spending $1.5 million to protect their citizens and property from the ravages of fire, it is money well spent."
As Hymers points out, water scoopers and land-based tankers have different roles, and they can and do work side by side in many countries. "You can look at the technological age difference between the PBY and a CL-415 as you would the difference between a P-51 Mustang — a front-line fighter in World War II — and today's F-16 Fighter," says Hymers. "I don't think for a minute if the enemy was threatening people and property, the taxpayers would be saying, ‘Send in the P-51s, because the F-16s are too expensive,' unless maybe you were the owner of the P-51s and you stood to make some money. What Canadair has done is brought fire fighting into the 21st century."
"With the exception of the Canadair scoopers, every aircraft fighting fire today was conceived and built with a totally different role in mind," adds Hymers. "When they became too old or not effective enough for the role — or when newer and better ones took over the role — they were bastardized and converted to the role of a firefighter. The Canadair machines were conceived for one reason, and that was to fight fire. And that is why they do it so well. I have been flying water bombers for 15 years. I started out on a PBY, moved to the CL-215 for 12 years, and am now spending my first season on the CL-415. I can tell you from experience that the CL-215 is everything I ever wished a PBY could be, and now the 415 is everything I ever wished the 215 could be."
"Had the L.A. County supervisors utilized our aircraft instead of the SuperScoopers, L.A. County would have saved $1.2 million each year," says Wells. "Water-bombing aircraft must drop the water and foam on the seat of the fire, just like a firefighter dragging a hose line up into the back bedroom of a two-story house where the fire is. Retardant tankers make an indirect attack adjacent to the fire; they seldom are required to drop on the actual fire. A piston-powered PBY, though, does effectively drop water on the actual fire. The CL-415 and 215 rarely can in our area, because unlike the PBY, the wing loading is different. The CL-415 cannot safely slow down to drop accurately in high winds and turbulence."
Also here is the response that was quoted in the same article:
Al Hymers works for the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources; he's based in Dryden, Ontario. He says there's no comparison between a CL-415 and other water-scooping aircraft. "Since I have flown both, I can assure you that a PBY does not even come close to fitting into the same league as a CL-415," says Hymers. "About the only thing they have in common is they scoop water. There is absolutely no way a PBY could handle stronger winds and rougher water than a CL-415. Whether or not the CL-415 can do the job in California is another question. I don't see why they couldn't — they do the job in similar terrain and climate all over the world — Italy, Turkey, France, Croatia, Spain, Greece, Mexico, western Canada — why would California be the only place they can't do the job? We all know that there are certain times and certain conditions when nothing will do the job."
"I have seen a CL-415, in 3.8 hours flight time, that ferried out 45 minutes, dropped 66 loads (over 100,000 gallons) and ferried back in 45 minutes," he adds. "I doubt there is any aircraft, scooper or long-term hauler, that could match these numbers. We do this kind of performance on a regular basis with the CL-415. We have had drops as high as 86 (over 130,000 gallons delivered) in one four-hour mission. I think even the Mars would have a hard time matching these numbers. As for the cost of operating these aircraft, if L.A. County is spending $1.5 million to protect their citizens and property from the ravages of fire, it is money well spent."
As Hymers points out, water scoopers and land-based tankers have different roles, and they can and do work side by side in many countries. "You can look at the technological age difference between the PBY and a CL-415 as you would the difference between a P-51 Mustang — a front-line fighter in World War II — and today's F-16 Fighter," says Hymers. "I don't think for a minute if the enemy was threatening people and property, the taxpayers would be saying, ‘Send in the P-51s, because the F-16s are too expensive,' unless maybe you were the owner of the P-51s and you stood to make some money. What Canadair has done is brought fire fighting into the 21st century."
"With the exception of the Canadair scoopers, every aircraft fighting fire today was conceived and built with a totally different role in mind," adds Hymers. "When they became too old or not effective enough for the role — or when newer and better ones took over the role — they were bastardized and converted to the role of a firefighter. The Canadair machines were conceived for one reason, and that was to fight fire. And that is why they do it so well. I have been flying water bombers for 15 years. I started out on a PBY, moved to the CL-215 for 12 years, and am now spending my first season on the CL-415. I can tell you from experience that the CL-215 is everything I ever wished a PBY could be, and now the 415 is everything I ever wished the 215 could be."
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
-
Driving Rain
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:10 pm
- Location: At a Tanker Base near you.
- Contact:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video ... html?id=1n
once into this link click FEMA's Fire Plan Burned.
Just be thankful we'll never hear this crap in Canada
once into this link click FEMA's Fire Plan Burned.
Just be thankful we'll never hear this crap in Canada
I spoke to an x- DC4 air spray driver from the 70s last weekend. He was telling about the days when he would clip the tree line in the forest of Quebec with the props of the #1,4 engines 
He was also telling me about one of his friends who was Quebecois & Americans who flew choppers in Vietnam....After the war, he & friend worked for HydroQ on the LaGrande project in the late 70s...
His friend would fly 15 feet off the ground following the hilly road to Lagrande 2 & skim large trucks & transport vehicles by 5 feet
He would also land his chopper like an airplane or as if he was dropping off troops @ a hot LZ
If you ever take a drive between Ontario & Quebec...you will notice a big difference
He was also telling me about one of his friends who was Quebecois & Americans who flew choppers in Vietnam....After the war, he & friend worked for HydroQ on the LaGrande project in the late 70s...
His friend would fly 15 feet off the ground following the hilly road to Lagrande 2 & skim large trucks & transport vehicles by 5 feet
He would also land his chopper like an airplane or as if he was dropping off troops @ a hot LZ
If you ever take a drive between Ontario & Quebec...you will notice a big difference
Asking a pilot about what he thinks of Transport Canada, is like asking a fire hydrant what does he think about dogs.
-
Driving Rain
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:10 pm
- Location: At a Tanker Base near you.
- Contact:
Ahh you noticed that too. He said they were the best and the best equipped. Only a loud mouthed Yankee would make that claim. If he wants to see the best equipped wild fire air support he should come to Canada. I don't care which province B.C., AB, SK, MB, ON, PQ NB. NL it don't make a difference. You don't see any agency in this country using clapped out tankers having the wings snap off or tankers blow up in mid air.AV8OR wrote:What makes California Wild Fire Fighters the best in the world? Just curious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qdjqei5 ... 20funny%20
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-67830973.html
You notice he tried very hard to not answer her question. The reporter is talking air resources and he's talking ground. What does FEMA stand for anyway?
Fuk Everyone More Anally.
Last edited by Driving Rain on Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That FEMA guy what a bullsh....my organisation in 2003 send 2 extra 415 during the big fires in San Diego, they were parker in Van Nuys and we never turned a prop.The report after stated the lack of air support was a contibuting factor of those fires.
The San Diego area would be perfect for scoopers, since they're lot's of lake, reservoir and the ocean at proximity.But when politics is stronger than commen sense that's what you get....nonsense.
The San Diego area would be perfect for scoopers, since they're lot's of lake, reservoir and the ocean at proximity.But when politics is stronger than commen sense that's what you get....nonsense.
From Fencecheck...
Regrettably, the Martin Mars operations have been delayed due to repairs to damage on the horizontal stabilizer due to a bird strike while passing over San Bernadino. News footage appears to show about a 1ft hole in leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. Hopefully it's nothing more than what a pair of tin snips and a pocket full of rivets can fix.
I think I read somewhere it was a couple ducks...
Tak
Regrettably, the Martin Mars operations have been delayed due to repairs to damage on the horizontal stabilizer due to a bird strike while passing over San Bernadino. News footage appears to show about a 1ft hole in leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. Hopefully it's nothing more than what a pair of tin snips and a pocket full of rivets can fix.
I think I read somewhere it was a couple ducks...
Tak
