The Mighty Beaver!

All Sides · Post by **All Sides** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:44 pm

Cat Driver
I would say that certainly most pilots operating Beavers and bush A/C are overloading, and as I stated before it is not right but has become pretty standard. You and I are sitting on a lot of aviation experience and can go anywhere we pretty much like, if we won't do what a lot of operaters expect we just go where there is a reputable operater. For hese guys starting out those options aren't available to them.

As I said before pounding away on these young pilots starting out accomplishs nothing. It is clear that TC is becoming less interestd all the time, and is going down the road of self policeing. So if you truly want to change the industry i suggest you try another route than badgering pilots.

By the way your renumeration doesn't impress me either, I make that in about 5 months work. Also I don't know anybodies name on this forum, nor do I particularily care to know their names, it is irrelevant. It is a forum to express ones opinion not to fluff my feathers, or try to build up my self esteem by critisizing other pilots. You have expressed you opinion and I have expressed mine, so lets get back to the Almighty Beaver

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:05 pm

By the way your renumeration doesn't impress me either, I make that in about 5 months work.

Wow, you are doing better than most in this industry, not many make $240,000 per year. Obviously you are a senior Captain with a major airline.

So I'll let you educate the kids.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:51 pm

Well, I am back from the near-north, with about 80 hours on the beaver - not too bad for starting out in august with 7 hours on a super cruiser!

tailwind · Post by **tailwind** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:48 pm

All Sides wrote: I would say that certainly most pilots operating Beavers and bush A/C are overloading, and as I stated before it is not right but has become pretty standard. You and I are sitting on a lot of aviation experience and can go anywhere we pretty much like, if we won't do what a lot of operaters expect we just go where there is a reputable operater. For hese guys starting out those options aren't available to them.

I definately disagree here as a Beaver Pilot is a very sought after commodity as of this past season, so we younger "less experienced" guys did have the availability of mobility if we were not in a comfortable situation. As far as most beaver pilots overloading their A/C's, this is something that I'm sure does happen but would be very far from saying MOST are.

CAT... What kind of positions are you offering that would pay $100,000.00 in less than 8 months... I would be quite interested.

All Sides · Post by **All Sides** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:42 pm

Like you said in your post you don't have much experience, so how do you know whether most Beavers are leaving the dock overloaded or not? Are you just referring to your own backyard or the whole country?

Good Luck getting the big bucks with CD. :)

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:14 pm

I keep bypassing this thread on my way to Pics from a swamper, but now you've got my attention.

I hate how these 'discussions,' and I use the term loosely, degenerate into mud slinging contest - PARTICULARLY between the higher time and more experienced people.

So....

Do a/c routinely get overloaded, in the bush or not? YES, yes, yes, and yes. To suggest otherwise is to flagrantly ignore the facts. It happens a lot, and as All Sides says, in many areas it's become SOP. That said, Cat is 100% correct in his YEARS of effort on this site to make young pilots aware of this trap, and to get them to say 'no.' Unfortunately, it's not that easy.

I personally can speak to FW bush flying, FW IFR, rotary bush/utility work, and rotary IFR. I have seen many, many aircraft of all types overloaded over the years, and I have been PIC of many of them, admittedly in my earlier years. Do I do it anymore? No I don't. Am I 100% certain I didn't lift a load that was either over gross or beyond the safe capabilities of my machines this summer? No, it's not that simple.

Flying a machine over gross is one thing, having the experience on type to understand when that machine is at or beyond it's capabilities is another. Depending on conditions, ie. altitude, temp, wind and pilot capability, a machine can and will perform very differently. Those limits may be exceeded WELL below legal MAUW/MTOW.

The pressures facing younger or less experienced pilots are enormous, and each of us is different. Your financial situation, the state of the industry at the time, your marital status, and your personality all apply pressures that can't simply be discounted as 'stupid.'

In a perfect world, ALL pilots would walk away from over gross situations regardless of a/c type, size, load, urgency, or the above mentioned pressures. It is not a perfect world.

I have witnessed customers add all manner of extra weight to airplanes I've flown, and with my personality they received a very harsh dressing down, never to do it again. I've had ground crews hook my long line to all manner of loads that were too heavy, many times after having previously broken down said part so I could lift it with something in the bank for me. Fortunately, my make up allows me to land, yell at them once, and if they do it again, simply fly away, I don't give a shit, I'm looking out for me, my Boss's machinery, and the pilots who will follow me on the job. If that's not good enough for my employer, they won't be my employer for much longer, I don't care. Many pilots do not share that trait.

By NO MEANS am I saying I've got it figured, in fact I'm saying just the opposite, and I've been at this a while now. So put that kid with 800hrs in that Jet Ranger/Beaver/185/HO and ask them to state with 100% confidence they're legal - more difficult than it looks.

Cat, you and I know each other well, and have talked about these issues many times, All Sides I don't know, but I have respect for both your opinions and would like to see this played out in a manner that others WILL READ what you've written and learn from it.

Regards,

stl

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:18 pm

I hate how these 'discussions,' and I use the term loosely, degenerate into mud slinging contest - PARTICULARLY between the higher time and more experienced people.

Unfortunately STL forums such as this will always bring out these mud slinging contests, if for no other reason than anyone can log on and say or claim anything they want to.

That said, Cat is 100% correct in his YEARS of effort on this site to make young pilots aware of this trap, and to get them to say 'no.' Unfortunately, it's not that easy.

The longer I get involved in these ongoing crap slinging arguments the less interested I become in even trying to make aviation safer for the young ones by posting here on Avcanada.

It is just not worth the effort of arguing with some anonymous poster who may not be able to figure out how to pour piss out of cowboy boots, let alone know about aviation safety issues.

I'm still involved with the Greek Airline and also with the HCAA and am not really sure of how much of my time this will take up in the coming months.

But the new Husky is still supposed to be ready before the start of the new year and I fully plan on doing one on one full immersion bush flying teaching with it.

That will at least be something I can derive some satisfaction from.

When are you going to drop by and visit STL?

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:25 pm

I'm working on that visit Cat, just been in Yukon ALL summer, now flying almost everyday here.... Haven't been down your way for a long time, but I WILL get there, promise!

My wife leaves on Tues, so I may just jump on the ferry and come by one day in November, have some really good friends on Gabriola, so we'll see.

stl

zero · Post by **zero** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:00 pm

Wuz zat u, STL, picking tree tops at the north end of Powell Lake in a yellow Hughes 500 a couple days ago. Flew by going from Bute to PR in a overloaded (kidding) -2 and thot it kinda looked like you.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:07 pm

zero wrote:Wuz zat u, STL, picking tree tops at the north end of Powell Lake in a yellow Hughes 500 a couple days ago. Flew by going from Bute to PR in a overloaded (kidding) -2 and thot it kinda looked like you.

Couple days ago? Nope, one of our other guys flying the pruner that day, might be me later this week though, see how the sched works out. Always fun maiming trees for the Gov't....

How you doing these days?? Busy by the sounds of it?

stl

B18rules · Post by **B18rules** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:06 pm

I am not trying to get out of line here but how come 20 years ago a beaver leaving the dock with 4 turkeys on board and full fuel heading to the Arctic was considered OK not to mention the B-18 with 2400 to 2600 pds of stuff and people or a 185 with 3 guys and 400 pounds of stuff is good to go? Have the airplanes become less tough or what?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:01 am

I am not trying to get out of line here but how come 20 years ago a beaver leaving the dock with 4 turkeys on board and full fuel heading to the Arctic was considered OK not to mention the B-18 with 2400 to 2600 pds of stuff and people or a 185 with 3 guys and 400 pounds of stuff is good to go? Have the airplanes become less tough or what?

You of course have to be joking about this, for one thing 20 years ago these airplanes had the same certification as they do today.

Have the airplanes become less tough or what?

What exactly do you mean by less tough? Or did you mean are some pilots just as stupid today as 20 years ago?

carholme · Post by **carholme** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:28 am

.;

Now I know why we are not making any money with the Beech. We operate at max 1900, come hell or high water.

The post with reference to a Beech at 2600lbs., is exactly the mentality that exists in many places in 703.

Just imagine the business we are losing by refusing to fly 700lbs. overgross. Glad I visit this site and learn that the fight is not in vain.

How fucking stupid is this business???

carholme

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:01 am

I guess the question is, have rules changed or the enforcement of the rules? Do people die because aircraft are operated outside their limitations? Are they operated outside their limitations because of a lack of qualification/experience/understanding of the rules and standards?

I think the questions are, have rules and standards changed? For the better? Has the enforcement and interpretation of the rules and standards changed? For the better?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:35 am

widow, I'm sure you know the answers to these questions but let me answer them anyhow without sugar coating my comments.

I guess the question is, have rules changed or the enforcement of the rules?

The rules have always been the same regarding the operation of any specific airplane, they have certification limits that can be found in the POH.

The enforcement of the rules has been getting less and less as TCCA spends more and more time covering up for the rule breakers in their own departments.

Proof positive can be found in the file that I gave you ( TC file # 5015-12391 ) The time and money that TCCA spent defending their own people and destroying my business is staggering. But when you read who they were defending it is easy to see why they did what they did. The only other choice they had was to get rid of some of their own at the top, starting with Merlin Preuss and Dave Nowzek who are at the very least moral degenerates who are making a mockery of the rule of law in Canada.

Do people die because aircraft are operated outside their limitations?

Yes.

Are they operated outside their limitations because of a lack of qualification/experience/understanding of the rules and standards?

No. Those who operate them outside of the rules do it for profit, and are well aware they are operating outside of the rules.

I think the questions are, have rules and standards changed? For the better? Has the enforcement and interpretation of the rules and standards changed? For the better?

The short answer is TCCA is becoming more and more a self serving group of morally corrupt people at the top with utter contempt for the offices they hold.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:39 am

Carholme asked:

How fucking stupid is this business???

Here is part of the answer:

I am not trying to get out of line here but how come 20 years ago a beaver leaving the dock with 4 turkeys on board and full fuel heading to the Arctic was considered OK not to mention the B-18 with 2400 to 2600 pds of stuff and people or a 185 with 3 guys and 400 pounds of stuff is good to go? Have the airplanes become less tough or what?

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:06 pm

Well a little history on the B-18 and NWO -- back in the 60's the NWO air carrier association (the days of the good old boys) approached TC to have the airplane classified as a single engine airplane and to allow the airplane to haul the loads mentioned, although 2200 lbs was the standard I remember and that was leeaving home base -- coming home it was different -- but that was without pilot and gas and it didn't matter if you went 5 miles or 500 miles it was the same load -- needless to say it didn't fly

Back in those days all operators had standard loads (sheesh -- I didn't even know the GWT except for the Beaver -- it was on the dash) -- -- pilots and gas were never counted -- a beech 18 on cut down otter boards was not legal for the pilot to sit in it after full mains and 3 tenths in the nose -- if memory serves me correctly the disposable load was about 147 lbs -- so yes airplanes were over loaded and likely still are but back in those days we could pull out the seats -- have the dudes sitting on their coolers so the c of g was better -- damn -- the good old days -- lucky a good percentage of us survived -- some didn't and that was truly sad -- but strangely enough not many incidents related to over loading -- far more weather related impacts -- in and out of control ----

B18rules · Post by **B18rules** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:40 pm

Hey relax already! All I was saying is that I have heard some of the old bush pilots talk about those kind of loads way back when! It sure don't take much to get you guys all riled up does it. With all the years between you 2 guys I am sure either of you has never seen an overloaded aircraft?

carholme · Post by **carholme** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:11 am

Beech 18rules

Here is what you said on May 25/2007

B18rules wrote:I think it is because in the early days when they first started flying them on floats they tried to make it perform like a normal twin engine airplane. That is not the case!! All the second engine does with a fully loaded Beech is flatten out your glide slope a little. Some people early on had some problems and got it too slow and it just rolled over on its back and did its best lawn dart imitation. Maybe thats where the widow maker name came from. But if they are flown properly and the pilot knows the do's and dont's of the old girl you will have a long and rewarding career together.

If this is the extent of your knowledge of the Beech 18, I can understand why you would post such a question. You did not make any mention in your first post on this thread that you were merely telling old pilot tales. Obviously you have not read much on this forum about efforts to try and clean up 703 and the reasons for doing so.

As I said previously, "How stupid is this fucking business"?

In answer to your question about seeing overloaded aircraft, the answer is yes I have, for a great many years and it is still going on but I don't need to tell you that because you see it all the time and you are fully aware of it. The question is "What have you done about it"?

carholme