The hours between private and comercial

tiny · Post by **tiny** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:03 pm

So in the 150+ hours between a ppl and cpl how many hours are required to learn whats needed and how much is building time? I have an oppertunity to build time away from flight school rather than renting every hour. At what point do I start wasting time building hours when I should be going back to the school for my cpl?

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:18 pm

Well .... depends on if you want a Commercial with or without additional ratings.

If your looking to make a go at it with all the ratings here's my recommended breakdown for any student:

PPL - 45 to 60 hours total time
Night Rating - add 15-20 hours (so looking at 60-80 TT)

50 Hours PIC XC build time
(If you plan on your ATPL's, do all of this at night; if not, any combo will work, suggest 25 day / 25 night)

Multi-Engine Rating - add 5 to 10 hours (so now at 130-150ish)

Instrument Rating - add 40 hours (now at 170-190)

CPL - Review with Instructor / Solo Flight Test Items for 10-15 hours

Voila ! done in almost 200 hours, may have some extra time. I had my stuff done in:

PPL - 52 TT
Night - 76 TT (approx 8 hours of sight-seeing)
XC PIC Build - 126.3 (unfortuantely none at night, DOH!)
Multi - 141.6 (Did it over the winter so wx caused 2 week delay Flt test)
CPL/IFR - 226.3 TT (took a bit more time to do IFR)

Anywho, hope the above helps in guiding your decision; as for below, here's the CARs requirment to hold a CPL.

DIVISION VII - COMMERCIAL PILOT LICENCE
421.30 Aeroplanes - Requirements

The requirements in respect of an application for a Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane are the following:
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(1) Age

An applicant shall be a minimum of eighteen years of age.

(2) Medical Fitness and Validity

(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.

(b) The medical validity period for the licence holder under 40 years of age is 12 months and for a licence holder 40 years of age or over is 6 months.

(c) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.

(d) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.

(3) Knowledge

Ground School Instruction
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 80 hours commercial pilot aeroplane ground school instruction including at least the following subjects:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,

(ii) aerodynamics and theory of flight,

(iii) meteorology,

(iv) airframes, engines and systems,

(v) flight instruments,

(vi) radio and electronic theory,

(vii) navigation,

(viii) flight operations,

(ix) licensing requirements, and

(x) human factors including pilot decision‑making.

(b) An applicant who is a graduate from an approved integrated course shall have completed the applicable course requirements in section 426.75 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Written Examination
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(c) All applicants shall have obtained a minimum of 60% in each of the following four mandatory subjects areas as well as in the overall written examination Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane (CPAER):
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) Air Law ‑ regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the licence,

(ii) Navigation ‑ navigation, radio aids and electronic theory,

(iii) Meteorology, and

(iv) Aeronautics ‑ General Knowledge ‑ airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments and flight operations.

(d) An applicant who is a graduate from an approved integrated course shall have completed the applicable course requirements in section 426.75 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot‑in‑command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(II) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(b) An applicant who is a graduate from an approved integrated course shall have completed the applicable experience requirements in section 426.75 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

(5) Skill

Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall successfully complete a flight test to the standard outlined in the Flight Test Guide Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane (TP13462E).
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(6) Restricted Licence - Daylight Flying

(a) If an applicant has not completed the night flight time requirements, the licence shall be restricted to daylight flying, however the total dual instruction flight time and solo flight time requirements for the issuance of the licence shall be met.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(b) If an applicant completes the night flight time requirements, the restriction shall be removed.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(c) If an applicant holds a pilot licence ‑ helicopter valid for night flying, the night flight time experience may be reduced to 5 hours pilot flight time which shall include:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) 2 hours dual instruction night flight time,
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) 1 hour solo night flight time, and

(iii) 1 hour dual instruction instrument flight time.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(7) Credits

(a) Knowledge

(i) An applicant who holds a Commercial Pilot Licence ‑ Helicopter or higher, shall, when applying for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, be credited with 20 hours of the 80 hour ground school instruction requirement.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) An applicant who holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Helicopter or higher, shall, in lieu of completing the written examination Commercial Pilot - Aeroplane (CPAER), obtain a minimum of 60% in the written examination Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) - Alternate Category (CARAC).
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(b) Experience
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

If an applicant holds a pilot permit or licence in another aircraft category, flight time credits may be claimed as follows:

(i) Commercial Pilot Licence - Helicopter

If an applicant holds a Commercial Pilot Licence ‑ Helicopter, the 200 hours total flight time in aeroplanes required by subparagraph (4)(a)(i) is considered to have been met if the applicant has completed a minimum of 100 hours pilot flight time in aeroplanes, including the 65 hours experience required by subparagraph (4)(a)(ii). In this case, it is not necessary to obtain a Private Pilot Licence — Aeroplane prior to obtaining the Commercial Pilot Licence — Aeroplane.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) Private Pilot Licence - Helicopter

If an applicant holds a Private Pilot Licence — Helicopter, the following must be met:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(A) a maximum of 50 hours flight time in helicopters shall be credited towards the 200 hours total flight time requirement, and

(B) a maximum of 25 hours of pilot-in-command flight time in helicopters shall be credited towards the 100 hours pilot-in-command flight time requirement.

(iii) Pilot Licence - Glider

If an applicant holds a Pilot Licence ‑ Glider, a maximum of 50 hours flight time in gliders shall be credited towards the 200 hours total flight time requirement but this time shall not be credited towards the 100 hour pilot‑in‑command flight time.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(iv) Three Axis Ultra-light Aeroplane

If an applicant holds a Pilot Permit — Ultra-light Aeroplane, a Recreational Pilot Permit — Aeroplane or a Private Pilot Licence — Aeroplane, a maximum of 25 hours pilot‑in‑command flight time in three axis ultra-light aeroplanes shall be credited towards the 200 hours total flight time requirement but this time shall not be credited towards the 100 hour pilot‑in‑command flight time.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(v) Instrument Flight Time

If an applicant holds a Pilot Licence — Helicopter category, they shall be credited with instrument flight time acquired in helicopters towards meeting the instrument flight time experience requirements provided that the applicant has acquired a minimum of 10 hours of dual instruction instrument flight time in aeroplanes.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(vi) Night Flight Time

(A) If an applicant holds a Private Pilot Licence — Aeroplane with a night rating, the total dual instruction and solo night flight time requirements are considered to have been met provided that the 35 hours dual instruction flight time and 30 hours solo flight time requirements are met.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(B) If an applicant holds a Pilot Licence — Helicopter valid for night privileges, the night flight time acquired in helicopters shall be credited towards the total dual instruction flight time and solo night flight time requirements provided that the applicant has acquired at night, in aeroplanes, a minimum of 1 hour dual instruction flight time and 1 hour solo flight time and the 35 hours dual instruction flight time and 30 hours solo flight time requirements are met.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(c) Experience – Same Category – Instrument Rating
(amended 2005/12/01; no previous version)

An applicant who holds or has held an instrument rating in the aeroplane category within the preceding 24 months is considered to have met the 20 hours dual instrument flight requirement of subclause 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III).
(amended 2005/12/01; no previous version)

(8) Credits for Canadian Forces Applicants
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Active and retired Canadian Forces personnel who have qualified to pilot aeroplane wings standard are considered to have met the ground school instruction requirement, the written examination requirement, the skill requirement and the requirement to hold a Private Pilot Licence, if the applicant:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(a) has met the flight time requirements specified in paragraph (4)(a) of which a minimum of 10 hours flight time was acquired in aeroplanes in the 12 months preceding the date of application; and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(b) obtains a minimum of 60% in the written examination Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) Air Law, Air Traffic Rules and Procedures (ARPCO).
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(9) Credits for Foreign Applicants

If an applicant has met the flight time requirements specified in paragraph (4)(a), the applicant who holds a commercial or higher type pilot licence in the aeroplane category, issued by a contracting state is considered to have met the ground school requirement.
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

young grasshopper · Post by **young grasshopper** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:25 pm

Pretty much what Grey_Wolf stated...Make sure (however you do it) to GET THOSE 25 HOUR NIGHT X-COUNTRY PIC UNDER YOU BELT. If you don't get 'em, this WILL burn you if you choose to get an F/O job somewhere. You'll be wondering why you have 3000 hours, your ATPL exams written, but still can't hold your ATPL. An uprade or two my slip past ya because you are unable to hold your ATPL...just my 2 cents though. Good luck!

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:43 pm

15-20 for a night rating??? the requirements are 5 dual 5 solo. Other than that all the advice so far is spot on.

Adam44 · Post by **Adam44** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:32 am

C-GGGQ wrote:15-20 for a night rating??? the requirements are 5 dual 5 solo. Other than that all the advice so far is spot on.

You need 10 instrument hours for a night rating as well (you can credit your 5 from the PPL.) That's where the 15 comes in.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:10 am

ah, right forgot about those.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:19 am

Don't forget the float time if you're that way inclined...

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:43 am

The problem is that night XC. Who wants to do that in a single engine? its nuts I tell ya!

Have fun

Adam44 · Post by **Adam44** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:42 am

Tango01 wrote:The problem is that night XC. Who wants to do that in a single engine? its nuts I tell ya!

Have fun

Why not? I've got 21.3 hours night XC PIC and am just a little ways past 135 TT. I've been advised repeatedly to get this out of the way during my commercial build-up.

My problem is that FBO's in Alberta that sell fuel at night (with no call out charge) seem to be few and far between. Not even the Aerocentre at YYC would sell me fuel after hours since I didn't have an account with them. That makes it difficult to fly an XC of any significant distance, unless you fly the first half during the day or stay overnight.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:02 am

I just made a round trip of the range of the aircraft, say the cessna does 4.5 hours endurance i'd make 3-4 hour flights round trip, no fuel stops

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:26 am

Does anybody have any suggestions?

Find airports with self-serve (24x7) fuel. Very popular in the USA at the smaller airports. There are a few in Canada - we put one in at CYSH. Usually they cost less because there is no labour overhead.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:34 pm

Is it 80 hours night you need for an ATPL (its been quite a while)?
I ended up renting a 172 at night to get the time I needed for mine. I would recommend doing as much might cross-country as you can stand otherwise you will likely be short later and will have to pay like I did.

The round-trip suggestion is a good one - I went YWL-YXS-Quesnel-YWL and that was all I could stand on one night. I went to Quesnel because PWA made its last stop there and the girls emptied out the galley - the FSS guy and I would scarf all the left-over roast beef 'bunwiches' before I wobbled off into the night and so, home to bed.

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:10 pm

Is it 80 hours night you need for an ATPL (its been quite a while)?

Almost, but no cigar ....

100 PIC Night, or 100 Co-PIC .... of which 25 shall be PIC XC at night.

421.34 ATPL Requirement

(4) Experience

An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;

(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;

(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.

Regardless; building "night" hours early will definately help later down the line

Again, a little self anecdote. I didn't do any when I was training, which is now biting me in the rear. I've picked up a few hours flying around, and while instructing night ratings; but wished [now] that i've would have done the "XC build time" at night so I wouldn't be short now.

I'm 350(or 700 Co-PIC) hours total time short of the ATPL; however, the requirment as mentionned above may prolong the wait .... I've got 50.9 Hours PIC or 86.4 Co-PIC remaining .... and have approx 17 months to do it. Not in a bad spot, but it would be more comfortable to have all the requirements done, and only have to worry about 'burning holes in the sky'.

tiny · Post by **tiny** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:45 pm

Thanks for the recommendations.

Tiny