Martin Mars, Going to California
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Martin Mars, Going to California
Just heard this on the news this evening. Martin Mars going to California to help out with the disaster going on there. Too bad they didn't go before now.
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sky's the limit
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Re: Martin Mars, Going to California
That, would be dangerously close to foresight, something Gov't AND aviation have dangerously little of....dhc-t2 wrote: Too bad they didn't go before now.
Nice to see them in action though,
stl
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wallypilot
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I've heard the reason (besides the states being among the last to ever ask for help) is that industry there is already so hugely invested in these 'mud bombers' the last thing they ever want is a Canadian water-bomber destroying their mud-bomber industry. Ever see many 415s in the US? They don't want people seeing that a water bomber is infinitely more efficient than a mud bomber which has to return to an aerodrome each time, vs a 415 (or Mars) which can scoop nearby water in minutes. Funny how they never mention that the Mars is coming from Canada in the US news.co-joe wrote:Did anyone else catch that footage on TV of the DC 10 dropping it's load on the fire in Kalifornia? Holy shit that's a big load of mud!
However I could be wrong, I was just having a discussion with someone about it.
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Tiny Voices
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Foam
From their web page...
The concentrated foam chemical is carried in the Bombardier 415 in one or two 300-litre (80-gallon) reservoirs. When used, it is injected into the water load at a ratio of 0.3% to 0.6% by volume. Using a 0.4% concentration, wich is typicaly used in firefighting, a 6000-litre (1585-gallon) water load requires only 24 litres (6.4-gallons) of foam concentrate. Foam is inexpensive compared to the cost of dropping an equivalent quantity of long-term retardant (red slush commonly used as a fire barrier).
BTW, just read somewhere that the Martin Mars had a bit of a bird strike on the way down. Looking for further news...
Tak
The concentrated foam chemical is carried in the Bombardier 415 in one or two 300-litre (80-gallon) reservoirs. When used, it is injected into the water load at a ratio of 0.3% to 0.6% by volume. Using a 0.4% concentration, wich is typicaly used in firefighting, a 6000-litre (1585-gallon) water load requires only 24 litres (6.4-gallons) of foam concentrate. Foam is inexpensive compared to the cost of dropping an equivalent quantity of long-term retardant (red slush commonly used as a fire barrier).
BTW, just read somewhere that the Martin Mars had a bit of a bird strike on the way down. Looking for further news...
Tak
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Driving Rain
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Tiny Voices
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.Another point to consider. If anyone calls in a suspected fire the MNR launches a water tanker to check it out. Many are false alarms so we just return to base. Many are real fires so we stop them before they get a chance to roll. There would be hesitation before pumping on a load of mud because its expensive and if its a false alarm, what do you do with the load. We used Trackers back in the 70's and as I recall a load of slurry was about $1200 back then, pretty expensive to throw in the bush. Water is cheap and Ontario has plenty. Getting that first load water on the fire quickly can save millions. Not just in fire fighting costs but in what that wood that is saved does for the economy.
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Driving Rain
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Yes were pretty lucky in Ontario with all that water. I remember back when we used mostly mud. There was a bad fire in Dryden district in 73 Dryden 7( I think). They dropped so much mud around Tegga Lake that the spring run off carried so much phosphate into it that every fish was killed. It took years for the lake to recover.
Muds great when you don't have water but if you got it might as well use it.
A couple of years ago I was working a fire close to Meadow Lake SK. I was amazed at how fast they could cycle the S2's. They surrounded it with mud while we killed the middle. The two systems work well when combined.
Muds great when you don't have water but if you got it might as well use it.
A couple of years ago I was working a fire close to Meadow Lake SK. I was amazed at how fast they could cycle the S2's. They surrounded it with mud while we killed the middle. The two systems work well when combined.
Last edited by Driving Rain on Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its been a long time but I don't ever remember one of our piston trackers ( some of which are now firecats ) returning with a load. I don't want to open that can of worms about mudslingers against water tankers but when there is a wind burning embers sail right over red lines so at times you're are just turning kerosene into noise. Waterbombers can hit the head of a fire which cools it down, stops the potential for spot fires miles ahead, then attack the fire itself. I have had little exposure to long term slurry drops but do these aircraft drop on burning structures in residential neighborhoods without damage to buildings and property? A water tanker can adjust its drop height and create heavy rain on homes with no after effects. I realize in places like Montana a few years ago, where there is no water, our machines are not so effective, but we can fill up from a hydrant at an airport alongside a mudslinger, but he can't fill up on a lake like us.
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Driving Rain
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sky's the limit
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The best method to truly put out a fire is to contain it with FW, hit the hot spots with helicopters, and then have the grunts on the ground do the rest. Aircraft alone have a hard time putting out a fire in most ground types, particularly bog/moss etc where the fire smolders under a foot or two of growth.
I'm excited to see some footage of the Mars in action down south, I had the pleasure to work a fire on the west coast of Vancouver Is a couple years ago with both of them. Quite a sight to see. Took these while bucketing:
stl
I'm excited to see some footage of the Mars in action down south, I had the pleasure to work a fire on the west coast of Vancouver Is a couple years ago with both of them. Quite a sight to see. Took these while bucketing:
stl
Mars gel
From the LA Times...
Brought from Canada to help in the firefighting effort, the Martin Mars JRM III was expected to take off from Seaport Boat Launch at Lake Elsinore...
The aircraft carries 7,200 gallons of water, enough to cover an area of four acres. The aircraft was loaded with a mix of water and Thermo-Gel, a material that helps expedite firefighting.
A smaller aircraft owned by the California Fire Department was expected to fly ahead to tell the pilot of the Martin Mars JRM III where to drop a combination of water and Thermo-Gel.
Sooo, here is my Thermo-Gel calculation....
7200 gal x .02 (concentration) is 144 gallons US. I see the stuff retails for about $80 a gallon.
That would be about $11,500 a load!
I guess they don't pay retail or buy it in gallon jugs....LOL
I'm just laffin thinking about trying to trim some planes.... while you take on cargo at 1 ton per second!!!
Tak
Brought from Canada to help in the firefighting effort, the Martin Mars JRM III was expected to take off from Seaport Boat Launch at Lake Elsinore...
The aircraft carries 7,200 gallons of water, enough to cover an area of four acres. The aircraft was loaded with a mix of water and Thermo-Gel, a material that helps expedite firefighting.
A smaller aircraft owned by the California Fire Department was expected to fly ahead to tell the pilot of the Martin Mars JRM III where to drop a combination of water and Thermo-Gel.
Sooo, here is my Thermo-Gel calculation....
7200 gal x .02 (concentration) is 144 gallons US. I see the stuff retails for about $80 a gallon.
That would be about $11,500 a load!
I guess they don't pay retail or buy it in gallon jugs....LOL
I'm just laffin thinking about trying to trim some planes.... while you take on cargo at 1 ton per second!!!
Tak
Good air-to-air video of the Mars arriving in California.
http://video.nbcsandiego.com/player/?id=171663
http://video.nbcsandiego.com/player/?id=171663
Cool vids I found....
http://www.youtube.com/swf/cps.swf?vide ... 1&border=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZB3DPE7tUU#
http://www.youtube.com/swf/cps.swf?vide ... 1&border=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZB3DPE7tUU#
Now it's sounding like they aren't even going to need the mars ....
"UNION-TRIBUNE
October 27, 2007
After all the hassles getting the big Martin Mars water bomber down from Canada to use against San Diego County's fires, the window of opportunity to put the big flying boat into action may have closed. "
"Its arrival Wednesday afternoon was almost a full day late because of problems with the weather – not customs, as was initially reported. It then was barred from flying Thursday because of poor visibility.
With the county's various wildfires now waning, fire commanders are debating whether any of their fires need it. The Martin Mars continued to float on Lake Elsinore yesterday, awaiting a mission. "
"UNION-TRIBUNE
October 27, 2007
After all the hassles getting the big Martin Mars water bomber down from Canada to use against San Diego County's fires, the window of opportunity to put the big flying boat into action may have closed. "
"Its arrival Wednesday afternoon was almost a full day late because of problems with the weather – not customs, as was initially reported. It then was barred from flying Thursday because of poor visibility.
With the county's various wildfires now waning, fire commanders are debating whether any of their fires need it. The Martin Mars continued to float on Lake Elsinore yesterday, awaiting a mission. "
From:
Martin Mars a hit in California
Gordon Hamilton
Vancouver Sun
Sunday, November 04, 2007
Crews of the Martin Mars water bomber prepare the giant aircraft in front of a wall of smoke.
CREDIT: Mark van Manen/Vancouver Sun
Crews of the Martin Mars water bomber prepare the giant aircraft in front of a wall of smoke.
Californians love the Martin Mars water bomber so much that they may want to keep it.
Port Alberni businessman Wayne Coulson, owner of the last two giant flying boats built for the U.S. Navy in the 1940s, said Sunday that federal, state and civic agencies are working to put funding together to keep one of the planes, named the Hawaii Mars, in San Diego for the remainder of this year's fire season.
The planes have been under-utilized in B.C. flying only three missions in this province during the entire summer. If they don't fly, they deteriorate, Coulson said.
Their fat profile and red-and-white markings have made the waterbombers legendary in B.C. where they have been putting out fires since the 1960s.
But the 60-year-old aircraft are costly to maintain and since purchasing the planes last April, Coulson has been trying to keep them operational by seeking new fire-fighting roles for them outside B.C. California wildfires, which some scientists expect to increase in intensity as a result of global warming, are a natural target for the massive bombers.
They can fly in low and slow and drop 30,000 litres of water per trip. On Oct 24, Coulson took one of them south to aid in the battle against California's wildfires.
The Hawaii Mars flew in fire fighting operations in an around the city of San Diego where it became a symbol of the battle against the fires.
The Mars was described by San Diego fire chief Tracy Jarman as a "super tanker" protecting the city. At their peak, the fires displaced 500,000 people and destroyed more that 1,800 homes throughout Southern California.
A news conference has been scheduled for Tuesday in San Diego, where the Mars is expected to be front-and-centre, doing a practice water-bombing drop in San Diego harbour.
"They are going to see if maybe there is some joint funding they can do to keep the Mars down in San Diego," Coulson said. "Everyone is trying to find a way to keep it there."
The Mars has struck a chord with the Americans. It's the largest operational flying boat in the world and during the Second World War was a familiar sight in San Diego Harbour. An advance copy of Jarman's speech for Tuesday's event expresses the American sentiment over the B.C. aircraft.
"It is historic that this plane has returned to San Diego," the speech states. "When the navy owned it, it was never based here, but it did make flights out of our bay, carrying troops and supplies to Hawaii and the Pacific. Now it is back, serving the citizens of the city, the county and the state in an entirely different capacity."
Currently all fires are either out or under control and California's entire air tanker fleet of 34 aircraft has turned the mop-up job over to ground crews. But the fire season is not over and the Santa Ana winds, annual hot, dry withs from the East, could easily fan fresh blazes.
Over the weekend winds of 80 kilometres and hour were forecast and no fire crews have been sent home yet. If the funding is arranged, Coulson said the Mars will remain in California for the next few weeks or month.
Otherwise, it will be heading straight back to its home base of Port Alberni.
"Nothing has been put into play yet," said Coulson of the drive to keep the plane in the U.S. a little longer. "But we are moving the Mars into San Diego harbour Monday morning. We are hopeful."
Coulson bought the planes last April from former owners TimberWest Forest, which had grown tired of their financial drain. He put together a business plan to determine if they could pay their own way if given enough resources.
He purchased a fuel truck and outfitted a NASCAR-style semi-trailer with all the spare parts and high-tech equipment needed to keep the planes operational away from home. He has said previously he's going to give the planes one year to prove their mettle.
This year's California fires, driven by hot Santa Ana winds, providing a chance for the Mars to showcase its potential.
Coulson said the giant water bomber's presence attracted wide coverage in the battle to contain the blazes, which destroyed more that 1,800 homes.
Their website, MartinMars.com, has has more than 35,000 hits since the plane flew south and every major news organization has covered it. It's the kind of publicity Coulson said the aircraft need if they are to stay operational.
ghamilton@png.canwest.com
© Vancouver Sun
Martin Mars a hit in California
Gordon Hamilton
Vancouver Sun
Sunday, November 04, 2007
Crews of the Martin Mars water bomber prepare the giant aircraft in front of a wall of smoke.
CREDIT: Mark van Manen/Vancouver Sun
Crews of the Martin Mars water bomber prepare the giant aircraft in front of a wall of smoke.
Californians love the Martin Mars water bomber so much that they may want to keep it.
Port Alberni businessman Wayne Coulson, owner of the last two giant flying boats built for the U.S. Navy in the 1940s, said Sunday that federal, state and civic agencies are working to put funding together to keep one of the planes, named the Hawaii Mars, in San Diego for the remainder of this year's fire season.
The planes have been under-utilized in B.C. flying only three missions in this province during the entire summer. If they don't fly, they deteriorate, Coulson said.
Their fat profile and red-and-white markings have made the waterbombers legendary in B.C. where they have been putting out fires since the 1960s.
But the 60-year-old aircraft are costly to maintain and since purchasing the planes last April, Coulson has been trying to keep them operational by seeking new fire-fighting roles for them outside B.C. California wildfires, which some scientists expect to increase in intensity as a result of global warming, are a natural target for the massive bombers.
They can fly in low and slow and drop 30,000 litres of water per trip. On Oct 24, Coulson took one of them south to aid in the battle against California's wildfires.
The Hawaii Mars flew in fire fighting operations in an around the city of San Diego where it became a symbol of the battle against the fires.
The Mars was described by San Diego fire chief Tracy Jarman as a "super tanker" protecting the city. At their peak, the fires displaced 500,000 people and destroyed more that 1,800 homes throughout Southern California.
A news conference has been scheduled for Tuesday in San Diego, where the Mars is expected to be front-and-centre, doing a practice water-bombing drop in San Diego harbour.
"They are going to see if maybe there is some joint funding they can do to keep the Mars down in San Diego," Coulson said. "Everyone is trying to find a way to keep it there."
The Mars has struck a chord with the Americans. It's the largest operational flying boat in the world and during the Second World War was a familiar sight in San Diego Harbour. An advance copy of Jarman's speech for Tuesday's event expresses the American sentiment over the B.C. aircraft.
"It is historic that this plane has returned to San Diego," the speech states. "When the navy owned it, it was never based here, but it did make flights out of our bay, carrying troops and supplies to Hawaii and the Pacific. Now it is back, serving the citizens of the city, the county and the state in an entirely different capacity."
Currently all fires are either out or under control and California's entire air tanker fleet of 34 aircraft has turned the mop-up job over to ground crews. But the fire season is not over and the Santa Ana winds, annual hot, dry withs from the East, could easily fan fresh blazes.
Over the weekend winds of 80 kilometres and hour were forecast and no fire crews have been sent home yet. If the funding is arranged, Coulson said the Mars will remain in California for the next few weeks or month.
Otherwise, it will be heading straight back to its home base of Port Alberni.
"Nothing has been put into play yet," said Coulson of the drive to keep the plane in the U.S. a little longer. "But we are moving the Mars into San Diego harbour Monday morning. We are hopeful."
Coulson bought the planes last April from former owners TimberWest Forest, which had grown tired of their financial drain. He put together a business plan to determine if they could pay their own way if given enough resources.
He purchased a fuel truck and outfitted a NASCAR-style semi-trailer with all the spare parts and high-tech equipment needed to keep the planes operational away from home. He has said previously he's going to give the planes one year to prove their mettle.
This year's California fires, driven by hot Santa Ana winds, providing a chance for the Mars to showcase its potential.
Coulson said the giant water bomber's presence attracted wide coverage in the battle to contain the blazes, which destroyed more that 1,800 homes.
Their website, MartinMars.com, has has more than 35,000 hits since the plane flew south and every major news organization has covered it. It's the kind of publicity Coulson said the aircraft need if they are to stay operational.
ghamilton@png.canwest.com
© Vancouver Sun
