An open letter to all Borek pilots
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
-
tailgunner
- Rank 7
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm
An open letter to all Borek pilots
Those of us who live and work in the civilized south would like to gently remind you that there are others who fly down here. You and your flea bitten King Airs DO NOT own the airport, the ramp, the approach airspace. We in the south try to act professional and watch out for each other's A/C, especially when there might be a little gravel and dust around. We also give each other enough room on approach that the other professional can exit the runway without having you cowboys chase us down it. So please when you cross the 60th south bound and are all full of piss and vinegar take a moment to gather yourself and remember you might be hauling "pigs" but you should not act like one.
-
southbound
- Rank 2
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:40 pm
Tailgunner.
I echo your thoughts exactly! I heard that an old Centennial Pilot was going to beat the shit out of a Borek crew in FT ST John one snowy day but they wouldn't get out of the airplane. I guess they thought their cowboy antics were COOL until someone called them on it.......I guess they can act like idiots all they want until it's time to put put then they fold like a a cheap tent. The CP needs to keep a little tighter rein on the monkeys I think.
The lack of airmanship demonstrated by Borek pilots on a whole is appauling. Stay in Inuvik where you belong.
I echo your thoughts exactly! I heard that an old Centennial Pilot was going to beat the shit out of a Borek crew in FT ST John one snowy day but they wouldn't get out of the airplane. I guess they thought their cowboy antics were COOL until someone called them on it.......I guess they can act like idiots all they want until it's time to put put then they fold like a a cheap tent. The CP needs to keep a little tighter rein on the monkeys I think.
The lack of airmanship demonstrated by Borek pilots on a whole is appauling. Stay in Inuvik where you belong.
-
maxofthenorth
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:03 pm
-
shitdisturber
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2165
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:38 pm
- Location: If it's Monday it's got to be somewhere shitty
-
just curious
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
-
just curious
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
Argue
Tailgunner, I gather you had a bad day. I guess you got prop blasted, well that is a no-no, but it has happened to me (yes here in YYC, and not by Borek planes) more times than I can count....maybe a new FO, or someone had a brainfart, either way, if there's no damage, get over it.
I also see you felt a Borek King Air was a little close for comfort on Approach. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Let me ask you this, did ATC spin them? If yes, then they were, if not then they weren’t. If you'd like to see what close is, go fly in the states for a bit.
Southbound, you sound like a child who is trying to interrupt in an adult conversion.... annoying as well as uneducated.
Cheers.
PS...JC, you fly the 99.... your one of us
Tailgunner, I gather you had a bad day. I guess you got prop blasted, well that is a no-no, but it has happened to me (yes here in YYC, and not by Borek planes) more times than I can count....maybe a new FO, or someone had a brainfart, either way, if there's no damage, get over it.
I also see you felt a Borek King Air was a little close for comfort on Approach. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Let me ask you this, did ATC spin them? If yes, then they were, if not then they weren’t. If you'd like to see what close is, go fly in the states for a bit.
Southbound, you sound like a child who is trying to interrupt in an adult conversion.... annoying as well as uneducated.
Cheers.
PS...JC, you fly the 99.... your one of us
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Cool Down
Okay guys,
I really think we have to cool down here on this topic.
Why all the bashing all the time? I am beginning to see that there are a lot of negative/ underemployed people on this site. Lets try and keep it professioanl and lets try and assist each other instead of the constant nagging and criticism.
I really think we have to cool down here on this topic.
Why all the bashing all the time? I am beginning to see that there are a lot of negative/ underemployed people on this site. Lets try and keep it professioanl and lets try and assist each other instead of the constant nagging and criticism.
-
slowstream
- Rank 7
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Canada
Well Said, I agree very much although I know a couple guys there and they are stand up guys. But maybe K.B could spend some money and get you fella's some radio's............before someone says it yeah I know you got radios.......then why the *ell can't you guys make radio calls at uncontrolled airports and announce your position to us other poor slobs?
-
masterdab8ter
- Rank 1
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:18 pm
- Location: Where work wants me???
-
tailgunner
- Rank 7
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm
co joe: before you get your three stripes crossed, or get camel toe with your tight fitting black flight suit, I will state that All borek pilots are not cowboys, however in my expeience when the Ramp is full and someone is flying or acting retarded it is, and has been that all too common Black flight Suit. Furthermore, I have flown aircraft all over the southern U.S. and I appreciate busy airspace, however I do not appreciate having A/C land over top of me when I am still maneuvering to clear at certain oil- patch strips. ( hamburg to name one), Nor do I appreciate starring at landing lights clearing on Bravo at G.P., only to have FSS comment to the bandit crew that they were cutting that really close.
If it was a new co- pilot or maybe a slow learner at the controls when on the ramp, I can only say that My A/C should not be at risk because of it...Use your brains and have the most competant of the two taxi the A/C slowly on the Ramp, taking care to watch out for other A/C.
MASTERDB8TER :I did not know that making it to Westjet or Cathay automatically made you a better professional than the rest of us. I would say that there are incompetant pilots in all area, including CATHAY and WESTJET....Keep plugging though If you know enough people they may vouch for you yet!! OUT.
If it was a new co- pilot or maybe a slow learner at the controls when on the ramp, I can only say that My A/C should not be at risk because of it...Use your brains and have the most competant of the two taxi the A/C slowly on the Ramp, taking care to watch out for other A/C.
MASTERDB8TER :I did not know that making it to Westjet or Cathay automatically made you a better professional than the rest of us. I would say that there are incompetant pilots in all area, including CATHAY and WESTJET....Keep plugging though If you know enough people they may vouch for you yet!! OUT.
-
masterdab8ter
- Rank 1
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:18 pm
- Location: Where work wants me???
-
southbound
- Rank 2
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:40 pm
KING AIR GUY.
This is very interesting! You fly a king air.....and into the states alot I presume??? At least thats the impression you give? In the last month and a half I have spent time in three out of five of the busiest TCA's in North America. I am very familiar with common courtasy and airmanship expectations at high volume FBO's. Believe me sport! You prop wash a Falcon or Lear 60 and I promoise you one thing and that is you'll only do it once. I suspect you don't have half the experience you let on that you do. Further more, If someone sandblasts the side of your jet and you don't get on your soap box....you'll never fly anything worth more than 2 million bucks....it's that simple.
Unless you know where someone is coming from when they vent or make a comment on this site...maybe you should be quiet. They may just know what they are talking about.
This is very interesting! You fly a king air.....and into the states alot I presume??? At least thats the impression you give? In the last month and a half I have spent time in three out of five of the busiest TCA's in North America. I am very familiar with common courtasy and airmanship expectations at high volume FBO's. Believe me sport! You prop wash a Falcon or Lear 60 and I promoise you one thing and that is you'll only do it once. I suspect you don't have half the experience you let on that you do. Further more, If someone sandblasts the side of your jet and you don't get on your soap box....you'll never fly anything worth more than 2 million bucks....it's that simple.
Unless you know where someone is coming from when they vent or make a comment on this site...maybe you should be quiet. They may just know what they are talking about.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
There are minimum IQ pilots in any organazation.
If in fact a crew did something stupid would it not be better to take it up with the crew?
And if they are arrogant or just plain stupid go to their Chief Pilot, that what we have Chief Pilots for.
Cat
If in fact a crew did something stupid would it not be better to take it up with the crew?
And if they are arrogant or just plain stupid go to their Chief Pilot, that what we have Chief Pilots for.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
This reminds me of an incident we had a few years ago with a Lear 60 crew that had brought their shiny new airplane up from TO to Rankin Inlet for a day or so, where we were running a project with a grunt-working Navajo nicknamed 'the Mule'. We were just getting ready to fire up and go flying when these guys taxied in, pulled up right beside us, brought up the thrust and turned their ass to us for their shutdown checks. I had to quickly get the plane fired up and taxi it away from the blast. Our engineer saw the crew a few hours later at the restaurant in the Northern Store and politely confronted them on it. The skipper got his back up basically told our engineer (an upstanding guy) where to go. Turns out, the crew didn't have 3000 hours between them. I'm not sure whether it was their lack of experience, or just a lack of respect for airplanes smaller from theirs, but it was done. And they didn't think they did anything wrong. If they were professionals, they would have appologized, and learned from the whole thing... no blood drawn. The moral of the story is that there are unprofessional people in many companies. And if Borek has 200 pilots, I'm sure there are some there as well. Endeavour not to paint them all with the same brush, but to confront the crew with your thoughts right away. At that point you'll find out if they made a mistake (like we can all do), or if they are just straight out unprofessional. Screaming and yelling about it is no more professional than committing the actual crime in the first place. Dealing with the issue diplomatically and promptly is. My 2c. Peace.
S to the H to the A to the N to the K-Down
S to the H to the A to the N to the K-Down
I have flowen in both the north and south in every thing from 185's to king airs (never for Borek) and I can remember multiple times when you professionals from YYC (many who still need to change there diapers) have can straight in with your king airs into strips and expected people ahead of you to get out your way because they are IFR or bigger and faster than what may be ahead of them. You talk about professionism tail gunner well start the courses south of 60 because I've seen more big heads here than I ever have up north or in the bush. Most of the time it isn't lack of professionism as much as it is some young punk in a big airplane that years ago would have had known when to talk without putting his foot into his mouth.
maybe its just my lack of experience (250 hours) but I am curious as to what is wrong with overshooting???
I recently spoke with a Transport Canada Inspector who made it clear that not enough pilots are willing to overshoot in situations where it might be a good idea. Now common sense tells me that if you are going to cut it close to anything you shouldn't be doing what your doing...What kinds of company pressures are involved here, after all we are all out there for the same reasons!
Am I just being the typical nieve newbee or what??
I recently spoke with a Transport Canada Inspector who made it clear that not enough pilots are willing to overshoot in situations where it might be a good idea. Now common sense tells me that if you are going to cut it close to anything you shouldn't be doing what your doing...What kinds of company pressures are involved here, after all we are all out there for the same reasons!
Am I just being the typical nieve newbee or what??
Powell887. You're absolutely right. There is absolutely nothing wrong with overshooting. The reasons for not going around would be:
1)Pride
2)Don't want to cost the company money in fuel
3)To make on-time
4)Company pressures
But more often than not, I believe the answer to be pride. Having 250 hours is the perfect time to get into the habit of not letting pride get in the way. Work hard at it, cause its not as easy as you'd think.
SD
1)Pride
2)Don't want to cost the company money in fuel
3)To make on-time
4)Company pressures
But more often than not, I believe the answer to be pride. Having 250 hours is the perfect time to get into the habit of not letting pride get in the way. Work hard at it, cause its not as easy as you'd think.
SD
Powell:
Well, you might want to learn to spell naive
.
Nothing wrong with an overshoot, except that it costs money. Sometimes an overshoot is the only safe option. But as a professional pilot, you should be trying to minimize the number of overshoots required.
Oh and put not your faith into transport canada inspectors. They are often right about simple, specific points, but when it comes to topics of a broader scope they are usually in over their heads.
Well, you might want to learn to spell naive
.Nothing wrong with an overshoot, except that it costs money. Sometimes an overshoot is the only safe option. But as a professional pilot, you should be trying to minimize the number of overshoots required.
Oh and put not your faith into transport canada inspectors. They are often right about simple, specific points, but when it comes to topics of a broader scope they are usually in over their heads.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Powell :
You are correct, when in doubt about the safety of your approach overshoot.
When you make good judgement decisions you need not care what others may think because you will most likely outlive them anyhow.
By the way, we all had 250 hours at one time.
Cat
You are correct, when in doubt about the safety of your approach overshoot.
When you make good judgement decisions you need not care what others may think because you will most likely outlive them anyhow.
By the way, we all had 250 hours at one time.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Southbound, I fully understand that this site is great for venting, and I’m not gonna knock someone for venting. BUT, when Tailgunner and yourself went on about how us Borek pilots are "unprofessional" and "lacking in airmanship as a whole", I take that as a personal insult. I, like most of my co-workers do the job we’re given to the best of our ability while following the rules, regs and code of conduct. Occasionally, sh!t happens, and it happens to us all.
Now are you gonna sit there and try to tell me that were the only one’s who have prop washed someone, or crowed another AC on approach? I don’t think so. Like I said, it’s happened to me a few times, from numerous companies across the country, and yes it gets the blood boiling. But to paint an entire pilot group with the same brush is not only ignorant, it lacks in maturity…or should I say experience.
I will admit that my comment to you in my last post was rude and uncalled for, I was mad, I do apologize.
As for my experience level, I’m not going to get into a pissing contest with you. I fly a King Air, I have a long way to go before I’m considered “experienced”.
Powell887, like Shankdown and CAT said there’s nothing wrong with overshooting. It’s a pride thing. If I get spun because I got to close to someone, it’s my fault. The easiest solution is to slow down, don’t crowd and avoid getting spun. Sometimes ATC will get you too close for comfort if your uncomfortable, request a slower speed, or a 360 for
re-spacing.
Cheers.
Now are you gonna sit there and try to tell me that were the only one’s who have prop washed someone, or crowed another AC on approach? I don’t think so. Like I said, it’s happened to me a few times, from numerous companies across the country, and yes it gets the blood boiling. But to paint an entire pilot group with the same brush is not only ignorant, it lacks in maturity…or should I say experience.
I will admit that my comment to you in my last post was rude and uncalled for, I was mad, I do apologize.
As for my experience level, I’m not going to get into a pissing contest with you. I fly a King Air, I have a long way to go before I’m considered “experienced”.
Powell887, like Shankdown and CAT said there’s nothing wrong with overshooting. It’s a pride thing. If I get spun because I got to close to someone, it’s my fault. The easiest solution is to slow down, don’t crowd and avoid getting spun. Sometimes ATC will get you too close for comfort if your uncomfortable, request a slower speed, or a 360 for
re-spacing.
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
I was always under the impression that part of a crew "creating" a safe flying environment was staying ahead of your airplane. If you're weren't semi proficient at planning ahead of an aircraft, you wouldn't be in the positions you are all in now.
PNF: "Hey dinglenuts, you got Centre on number one? I'm gonna see what's goin' on at the North Pole on number two".
PF: "Werd up, I got number one"
I guess what I'm saying is obvious. Using both radios is gonna prevent creeping up the next guys ass. It's gonna help everyone in the area HELP YOU plan your arrival. It doesn't matter one bit if it's Pearson, or Pikangikum. You lose your situational awareness at either one and you're already on the backside of the curve. If people don't know that you're coming, they won't expect you, or have time to figure out a plan to get outta your way (if you're that important).
This is a growing frustration that I think has been brought about through this board. It would appear through various threads that there is a certain stigma about using the radio. NOT using the radio seems to be the "cool" thing, emphasized by those that rule the North. Visitors from the South are looked down upon for their "drawn out" phraseology. I am the first one to bitch about the useless, long winded, brain-dead calls...but I'm also the first one to blow my lid when someone misses a call, or "conveniently" leaves it out. (I'd like to see a Northern knowitall try to ad-lib one of their coolio half calls going into Teterboro).
Clear communication prevents alot of the shit you guys are chirpin' about.
BTW, guess who's calls stick out like a sore thumb when they're down South?
(This is NOT an attack on Borek, or any other company. It's my tantrum based on previous radio threads. It's my nerdy opinion of the individual pirates within these companies that are making things tough for everyone else.)
PNF: "Hey dinglenuts, you got Centre on number one? I'm gonna see what's goin' on at the North Pole on number two".
PF: "Werd up, I got number one"
I guess what I'm saying is obvious. Using both radios is gonna prevent creeping up the next guys ass. It's gonna help everyone in the area HELP YOU plan your arrival. It doesn't matter one bit if it's Pearson, or Pikangikum. You lose your situational awareness at either one and you're already on the backside of the curve. If people don't know that you're coming, they won't expect you, or have time to figure out a plan to get outta your way (if you're that important).
This is a growing frustration that I think has been brought about through this board. It would appear through various threads that there is a certain stigma about using the radio. NOT using the radio seems to be the "cool" thing, emphasized by those that rule the North. Visitors from the South are looked down upon for their "drawn out" phraseology. I am the first one to bitch about the useless, long winded, brain-dead calls...but I'm also the first one to blow my lid when someone misses a call, or "conveniently" leaves it out. (I'd like to see a Northern knowitall try to ad-lib one of their coolio half calls going into Teterboro).
Clear communication prevents alot of the shit you guys are chirpin' about.
BTW, guess who's calls stick out like a sore thumb when they're down South?
(This is NOT an attack on Borek, or any other company. It's my tantrum based on previous radio threads. It's my nerdy opinion of the individual pirates within these companies that are making things tough for everyone else.)
