SAS Q400 gear collapse AGAIN (Oct 27)

[Boss Hawg]

Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.

Big difference in the two incidents. The one in September the gear collapsed without warning. In this latest event the crew knew well in advance what was going to happen. You really can't compare the way the crews handled each one.

Really? They had fire trucks and media standing by when they landed. The gear was down but they must have known there was some kind of problem. Maybe we're thinking of different incidents, weren't there 2 in Sept?


edit: This is the september one I'm referring to.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id- ... ml?forside

According to SAS, flight SK1209 was enroute from Copenhagen to Aalborg with 69 passengers and a crew of four when a problem with the aircraft's main landing gear was identified. The pilots prepared for a controlled emergency landing and, after landing, the right main gear collapsed

[Rubberbiscuit]

This also affects their sister company Wideroe. Looks like they will be getting rid of all their planes as well, and their entire fleet is Dash products. This would be sad as Wideroe has been around for decades and has only operated Dehavilland and Bombardier products for the last 60 years, starting with the Beaver, Otter, then moving to Twin Otters, Dash-7 and and Dash-8 today.

[sanjet]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071028/turbopro ... .html?.v=4

Airline Pulls Turboprops From Fleet


Scandinavian Airlines said Sunday it will pull Bombardier Q400 turboprops from its fleet after a series of crash landings caused by landing gear malfunctions.

...

Great for anyone looking for used Q400's on the market, just make sure u dont have junior SAS AME's working on it.

[Widow]

Bombardier Statement Regarding the SAS Decision on its Q400 Aircraft Fleet

By: Marketwire .
Oct. 28, 2007 05:56 PM


TORONTO, ONTARIO -- (MARKET WIRE) -- 10/28/07 -- Bombardier is disappointed with the SAS decision to permanently discontinue flight operations with the Bombardier Q400 aircraft given that the landing incident is still under investigation by Danish authorities.

While SAS chose to ground its Q400 turboprop fleet following the incident on October 27, 2007, Bombardier's assessment of this situation, in consultation with Transport Canada, did not identify a systemic landing gear issue. Based on this we advised all Q400 aircraft operators that they should continue with normal Q400 aircraft flight operations. Further, Bombardier and the landing gear manufacturer, Goodrich, have completed a full review of the Q400 turboprop landing gear system and results have confirmed its safe design and operational integrity.

Bombardier stands behind the Q400 aircraft. Since entering revenue service in February 2000, the Q400 turboprop has proven itself to be a safe and reliable aircraft with over 150 Q400 aircraft in operation among 22 operators around the world. To date, the fleet of Q400 aircraft has logged over one million flying hours and 1.2 million take-off and landing cycles.

About Bombardier

A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions, from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation headquartered in Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2007, were $14.8 billion US, and its shares are traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange (BBD). Bombardier is listed as an index component to the Dow Jones Sustainability World and North America indexes. News and information are available at http://www.bombardier.com.

http://www.sys-con.com/read/450745.htm

[station60]

They should have gone with the ATR72-500 in the first place, although a lesser-aircraft wrt performance, it's a much more proven aircraft.

I wonder what Porter and HydroQuebec will do now?

[sanjet]

I wonder what Porter and HydroQuebec will do now?

Hydro had some teething problems in the early stages but after their Q400 was replaced, they are quite happy with it along with porter. My guess is that they will proceed as filed.

[bungyno]

Why is only SAS having these problems with the main gears?

Glad to hear everyone's ok though.

Because SAS have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with starting disease.

[rd1331]

Well from a good source i have been told that the problems at SAS the first two where due to a substance on the gear that SAS was using. A corrosive non aviation substance. Let me say again NON AVIATION grade substance that SAS machanic's where using.

Lets just say my source has something to do with the people doing investigations.

[bungyno]

There is some consideration about the incident and why :

* SAS Group and WIDERØE (owned by SAS) have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with previous manufacture problems.

* SAS/WIDERØE is one of the most notable purchaser of the flights with a fleet of 31 of Dash 8/Q400 and its natural this airlines get this problems first.

[Alex YCV]

There is some consideration about the incident and why :

* SAS Group and WIDERØE (owned by SAS) have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with previous manufacture problems.

* SAS/WIDERØE is one of the most notable purchaser of the flights with a fleet of 31 of Dash 8/Q400 and its natural this airlines get this problems first.

Well, sort of. Law of averages says that with 150 aircraft in service, that SAS would only see 1 in 5 of the problems (if there was a problem) or 1 in 5 of thr random occurances. That SAS is seeing significant amounts of veyr similar issues over a relative short period of time is beyond standard stats.

It may be that they are doing shorter trips and more cycles, example, and that would expose a weakness or wear issue earlier than others. It may also be that their methods of maintain these aircraft are missing something or inadvertantly making an error in how they are doing things.

With the numbers like they are, my feelings lean towards something in the way these craft have been maintained or operated, but that is pure speculation.

[THEICEMAN]

Election time in Denmark. Politicians asking E.U to ban the Q400 from Europe.

I will try & find the article online.

All I have to say is good luck!

[privateer]

I just saw the news, apparently there is over 100 back ordered dash8's in the books. I highly disagree that this will hurt the Q400 in the long term and mostly likely make SAS look like a bunch of losers who couldn't properly perform maintenance on their airplanes.

Most of the landing gears on SAS Q400 were over 10,000 cycles and I'm sure having rookie 200hr F/O's landing the planes doesn’t help. Just a crazy system over there. Did anybody see that program on discovery about the A380 flight test program? The day before the first flight they couldn't even get the landing gear to deploy properly. Ever wonder why it stayed down for the whole first flight. But not to get off topic, I believe the Q400 is a great aircraft and to have 3 accidents in row by one airline shows not just a problem with the manufacture but possibly the airline.

[bmc]

Is the problem with Bombardier or Dowty landing gear? Strange that this problem continues.

[bcflyer]

Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.

Big difference in the two incidents. The one in September the gear collapsed without warning. In this latest event the crew knew well in advance what was going to happen. You really can't compare the way the crews handled each one.

Really? They had fire trucks and media standing by when they landed. The gear was down but they must have known there was some kind of problem. Maybe we're thinking of different incidents, weren't there 2 in Sept?


edit: This is the september one I'm referring to.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id- ... ml?forside

According to SAS, flight SK1209 was enroute from Copenhagen to Aalborg with 69 passengers and a crew of four when a problem with the aircraft's main landing gear was identified. The pilots prepared for a controlled emergency landing and, after landing, the right main gear collapsed

My apologies, we may be thinking of different incidents. I was thinking of a gear collapse but wasn't aware the crew knew in advance that they had a gear issue.

[Flying Nutcracker]

You know... after having read this thread... I feel like going back to watching the news on TV and actually get some news with less speculation...

FN

[Widow]

European air safety regulator to consider grounding Bombardier turboprops
By Nicola Clark

Monday, October 29, 2007

PARIS: Europe's air safety regulator expressed deep concern Monday following another crash landing of a Scandinavian Airlines turboprop plane in less than two months - the third such accident in less than two months involving the same type aircraft.

"We are very concerned about this most recent Dash-8 Q400 accident and the possible relation with other accidents involving the same plane," Daniel Höltgen, a spokesman for the European Aviation Safety Agency, said, referring to the twin-engined commuter plane made by Bombardier of Canada.

He said the Cologne-based regulator had requested an emergency meeting with the plane's manufacturer, Bombardier Aerospace, and Canadian transportation safety officials, to discuss the possibility of ordering a renewed grounding of the planes.

The board of Scandinavian Airlines announced Sunday that the carrier would permanently discontinue use of its 27-jet fleet of Q400 planes after a flight from Bergen, Norway, with 44 people on board crash-landed in Copenhagen on Saturday after its main landing gear failed to extend. No one was seriously injured in the incident, which followed two instances in September where the airline's Q400's skidded off runways in Denmark and Lithuania due to a landing gear failure.

The European safety agency said it had offered its assistance to the Danish authorities investigating the latest Q400 accident.

"What is important is for us to get the details fast," Höltgen said.

Separate investigations last month by the Danish and Lithuanian authorities concluded that the two earlier accidents had been the result of corrosion of a specific landing gear component.

Maintenance documentation supplied by Bombardier to all Q400 customers recommends that airlines inspect the plane's main landing gear and its retraction mechanism every 400 flight hours. Operators are also advised to replace certain components of the retraction mechanism after every 22,400 flights.

Hans Ollongren, a spokesman for Scandinavian Airlines, said that Saturday's incident did not immediately appear to be related to the previous two.

"In the first two cases, the reason for the collapse was the corrosion in a component that was not subject to inspection according to the manufacturer's maintenance manual," Ollongren said. "In Copenhagen, it was the case that the main landing gear did not extend properly."

A spokesman for the Danish Accident Investigation Board did not immediately return calls seeking comment about the latest accident. Denmark's transport minister, Jakob Axel Nielsen, described the incident on Saturday as "shameful and frustrating." 'We need to get all the way to the bottom of this case," he said.

Bombardier has said it is "disappointed" that Scandinavian Airlines has chosen to discontinue operating the Q400 before the Danish authorities had concluded their inquiry. The plane maker said that after consulting with Transport Canada, which certifies Bombardier planes for safety, it had sent a notice to all Q400 operators advising them to continue normal operations of the plane.

Lucy Vignola, a Transport Canada spokeswoman, said Monday that the regulator was awaiting further information from the Danish investigation before issuing any advisory to operators of the plane. She said a team of Canadian air safety officials had arrived in Copenhagen on Sunday to observe the investigation.

Scandinavian Airlines - the joint flag carrier of Sweden, Denmark and Norway - said it had been forced to cancel around 150 flights since Sunday. Ollongren said the carrier planned to replace the affected Q400 planes with others from its 300-plane fleet as well as leased aircraft.

The airline estimated that the decision to stop flying its Q400s could cost it as much as 400 million Swedish kronor, or $63 million, through the end of 2007.

Twenty-six airlines operate the 78-seat commuter jet, which entered commercial service in 2000. The Scandinavian Airlines Q400 fleet is the second-largest in Europe after the British low-cost carrier Flybe, which operates 29. A spokeswoman for Flybe could not be reached for comment about the carrier's plans for its Q400 fleet.

The world's largest fleet of Q400s is operated by the U.S. regional carrier, Horizon Air, which has 33 of the planes. Horizon, which is based in Seattle, plans to continue flying its turboprop fleet, Bill Conniff, an airline spokesman, told Bloomberg News. The company has an order for 15 more aircraft to be delivered starting in October 2008 and has no plans to cancel that order, Conniff said.

Ian Austen contributed reporting from Ottawa.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/29/business/jet.php

[Alex YCV]

They should have gone with the ATR72-500 in the first place, although a lesser-aircraft wrt performance, it's a much more proven aircraft.

"To date, the fleet of Q400 aircraft has logged over one million flying hours and 1.2 million take-off and landing cycles. "

How many cycles do you need in order to be "proven"? I think it's more likely that the AMEs at SAS sniff glue before performing landing gear work. How else do explain 3 incidents at one operator when 1.2 million t/o & landing cycles have proven the integrity of the design?

I noticed this as well. It would appear that many of the flights SAS are doing with these planes are quite short (ratio means about 45 flight minutes per cycle), which is fairly heavy use. I am sort of wondering if this isn't just parts reaching the end of thier useful lives and not being spotted in maintenance (or in design).

[xsbank]

The gear is NOT made by Dowty.

[Localizer]

Jazz should jump on those leases for a reduced rate ..

BF Goodrich makes the landing gear on the Q400.

[Redwine]

Yup, BF Goodrich, out of Oakville.

[teacher]

Could anyone with a better mechanical background than I explain what they mean here? Are they talking about a blockage of hydrolic fluid that prevented the gear from deploying?

Inquiry finds blocked actuator on third crashed SAS Q400

By David Kaminski-Morrow

Danish investigations into the Scandinavian Airlines Bombardier Q400 gear-up landing in Copenhagen during the last weekend of October have discovered that a blockage in a retraction actuator prevented the right-hand landing-gear extending.

The finding supports initial suggestions that the 27 October event was unrelated to the two gear-collapse accidents involving Scandinavian Airlines Q400s at Aalborg and Vilnius on 9 and 12 September.

Danish investigation authority HCL says the right-hand main landing-gear only partially deployed during the approach to Copenhagen, and attempts to recycle the gear and use alternative extension procedures failed to resolve the problem.

Corroded retraction actuators, which had then disconnected, had been found on the Q400s involved in the earlier accidents but HCL says the actuator on the Copenhagen aircraft was found to be intact and still connected to the undercarriage.

But it states that further examination identified a blocked orifice within the actuator assembly which prevented the complete extension of the right main gear.

“This finding is not related to the two previous accidents,” says HCL. “The source of the blockage is unknown at this time and the investigation continues.”

HCL’s discovery appears to back manufacturer Bombardier’s earlier claim that this latest event was unconnected to those last month.

SAS Group grounded all Q400s after the first two accidents in order to replace appropriate landing-gear components on its entire fleet, and the aircraft had only been back in service for a few days when the Copenhagen event occurred. The event has prompted SAS to ground its Q400s again and permanently withdraw them from service.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -q400.html

[teacher]

Carriers back Bombardier Q400 as EASA seeks crisis talks

By David Kaminski-Morrow

European aviation regulators are to hold a crisis meeting with Bombardier and Canadian authorities to discuss the airworthiness of the Q400 turboprop, as two of Europe’s largest operators of the type reaffirm their faith in the aircraft.

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) says it is “concerned” about the Scandinavian Airlines gear-related landing accident at Copenhagen two days ago and any “possible relation” with other recent incidents involving the type.

Scandinavian Airlines suffered two gear-collapse accidents last month and the Copenhagen event has prompted parent SAS Group to axe the Q400 from its carriers’ fleets.

EASA says: “The possible cause or causes of this accident are still unknown at the present time. We therefore urge the Danish authorities to inform us immediately of any results from the accident investigation.”

It adds it will speak urgently to Canadian regulators and Bombardier about the situation, stating: “In the light of our analysis we will decide whether to issue a further emergency airworthiness directive or any other appropriate measures for the Q400 aircraft.”

But UK regional carrier Flybe and Austrian regional carrier Austrian Arrows, Europe’s two other large operators of the Q400, have underlined their confidence in the type.

Flybe, which has more than 30 Q400s, says the aircraft has proven itself to be “reliable and safe” since entering service in early 2000. The carrier says: “Flybe has complete confidence in the Q400 and in the process of regulatory oversight which has made aviation the safest form of public transport.

“We await with interest the publication of independent reports into the SAS short-haul fleet and look forward to learning of any issues with operating procedures with the aircraft or with SAS’ maintenance procedures.”

Austrian Arrows has 10 Q400s in service and echoes Flybe’s opinion regarding the reliability of the type.

“According to our current findings our trust in the [Q400] fleet is unbroken, particularly as we have carried out around 116,000 take-offs and landings with the fleet, without any problems,” says Austrian chief executive Alfred Otsch.

“As safety has top priority, all of our aircraft are examined and maintained accurately on an ongoing basis. With our Q400 fleet there were no such incidents as unfortunately occurred with SAS.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... talks.html

[Troy_K]

New preliminary report . Blockage was caused by an o-ring that shouldn't have been there.
Download the pdf here

[rd1331]

Well I just cross SAS off my list of airlines I'll fly on. Man they can't figure out how to do maintenance on there airplanes. How long and how many accidents before the Danish authorities do something about the problems with SAS.