I overheard an instructor at Toronto Airways tell his student that they fly the twin in the circuit with the gear down. Is this becoming a standard procedure at most schools? I HOPE NOT!
T01
Gear Down?
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Cat Driver
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What is TC flight training's position on this?I overheard an instructor at Toronto Airways tell his student that they fly the twin in the circuit with the gear down. Is this becoming a standard procedure at most schools? I HOPE NOT!
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Tango: circuits in the twin were done (as they should be) with the gear brought up on initial climb and then back down somewhere in downwind when I was at Chicoutimi.
I guess others can fill us in for other places around Canada.
Plus, I can't help but think this difference in procedure between circuit and "regular" flights will result in a gear up landing at some point, with someone thinking that the gear had been left down all along.
Goodbye,
Louis
I guess others can fill us in for other places around Canada.
Plus, I can't help but think this difference in procedure between circuit and "regular" flights will result in a gear up landing at some point, with someone thinking that the gear had been left down all along.
Goodbye,
Louis
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Cat Driver
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Sooner or later some poor victims will have an engine failure turning cross wind in a twin with the gear down and at critical airspeed and the airplane will impact the earth vertical.
The relatives would sure like to sue TC for allowing this unorthodox training procedures to be taught in the schools they license.
But the morons at TC who are responsible for condoning these dangerous teaching methods will be quite secure in their protected little secure world at TC.
Makes me want to throw up every time I think of how useless these morons at TC really are.
The relatives would sure like to sue TC for allowing this unorthodox training procedures to be taught in the schools they license.
But the morons at TC who are responsible for condoning these dangerous teaching methods will be quite secure in their protected little secure world at TC.
Makes me want to throw up every time I think of how useless these morons at TC really are.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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We are discussing flying schools here, I have never ever seen a light twin that schools use for training with a gear cycle limitation.Maybe there is some type of aircraft limit that prevents them from cycling the gear too many times within a time period?
But lets for the sake of this discussion say there is a gear cycle limitation does that mean that training should be done with the gear down and expose the people in the airplane to an unnecessary risk?
Lets move this on to the PPC ride in a twin engine airplane.
Are you saying that a TC inspector will allow you to do the ride with the gear down on a PPC check ride because you were taught this way?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I don't agree with keeping the gear down for circuits. Everybody knows that repetition (and a good checklist) is the key to building muscle memory. What if this pilot, soon after he's done his rating, goes up alone, nervous as hell, and forgets to lower the gear!
Point is, you should ALWAYS do the entire checklist and not omit anything for the sake of making it easier or saving time.
If the argument is for safety, we should all look at the pro's and con's of doing this.
Point is, you should ALWAYS do the entire checklist and not omit anything for the sake of making it easier or saving time.
If the argument is for safety, we should all look at the pro's and con's of doing this.
The problem with putting the gear down downwind is that it is done in conjunction with the landing checklist which means you are holding something, in the example below for a 2-crew jet, the flaps and CAS. If you are single-pilot in a training scenario, holding the checklist introduces a chance for a landing without a completed checklist, the CAS check being the critical one.
1. Landing Gear Down / indicating
2. External Lights As required
3. Passenger Signs As required
4. Wing / Cowl Anti-Ice OFF or ON
1. Flight spoiler lever Retracted
2. Slat / flap Set for landing
3. CAS Checked
Seems to me if the reason for flying the circuit is fragile gear, that is a whole different issue than configuring the aircraft early so that a beginner can concentrate on a landing/missed approach.
The checklist is the critical driver here: After take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing, UNLESS there is a quick-return checklist that is approved:
"This procedure is intended to facilitate an immediate return and landing after a take-off and the completion of an After Take-off Check without the need to complete a Climb Check and Descent Check. This procedure may also serve as a Circuit Check."
1. Autobrake As required
2. Landing data Set
3. Approach briefing Complete
4. Fuel quantity and balance Checked
5. CAS Checked and cleared
What are the limitations on a BE20 gear?
1. Landing Gear Down / indicating
2. External Lights As required
3. Passenger Signs As required
4. Wing / Cowl Anti-Ice OFF or ON
1. Flight spoiler lever Retracted
2. Slat / flap Set for landing
3. CAS Checked
Seems to me if the reason for flying the circuit is fragile gear, that is a whole different issue than configuring the aircraft early so that a beginner can concentrate on a landing/missed approach.
The checklist is the critical driver here: After take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach and landing, UNLESS there is a quick-return checklist that is approved:
"This procedure is intended to facilitate an immediate return and landing after a take-off and the completion of an After Take-off Check without the need to complete a Climb Check and Descent Check. This procedure may also serve as a Circuit Check."
1. Autobrake As required
2. Landing data Set
3. Approach briefing Complete
4. Fuel quantity and balance Checked
5. CAS Checked and cleared
What are the limitations on a BE20 gear?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
There was an 'incident' late last year where a student failed to deploy the landing gear on the aircraft and proceeded to perform a nice belly landing resulting in extensive damage to the props and fuselage.
There was an email notice from Toronto Airways to all renters with regard to this incident and a change in policy regarding multi training and rental of the aircraft. Now, I haven't done any multi training there, but I don't believe they would insist that students to fly circuits with gear down. I may be wrong, however.
There was an email notice from Toronto Airways to all renters with regard to this incident and a change in policy regarding multi training and rental of the aircraft. Now, I haven't done any multi training there, but I don't believe they would insist that students to fly circuits with gear down. I may be wrong, however.
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Blue Side Down
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Out of curiosity-
A Q for guys like Cat Driver and those who have been around since the 'good 'ol days':
How often did students (or low time pilots... or TC inspectors
) bend airplanes 30 or 40 years ago, and what repercussions resulted? Were they in any way similar then to the ridiculous knee jerk reactions we see these days?
...or is what we see these days a result of a bloated industry with excess personnel and a shortage of cash on its hands?
A Q for guys like Cat Driver and those who have been around since the 'good 'ol days':
How often did students (or low time pilots... or TC inspectors
) bend airplanes 30 or 40 years ago, and what repercussions resulted? Were they in any way similar then to the ridiculous knee jerk reactions we see these days? ...or is what we see these days a result of a bloated industry with excess personnel and a shortage of cash on its hands?
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Cat Driver
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Out of curiosity-
A Q for guys like Cat Driver and those who have been around since the 'good 'ol days':
How often did students (or low time pilots... or TC inspectors ) Rolling Eyes bend airplanes 30 or 40 years ago, and what repercussions resulted?
That is difficult to give an accurate answer to, but generally speaking I would say there were a lot of preventable accidents 30 or 40 years ago.
The question that needs to be addressed is with more reliable aircraft that are easier to fly why are we still having so many accidents?
We did not have the internet then where any mentally deficient could sit on a computer and type anything that came into their minds, safe from scrutiny by others.Were they in any way similar then to the ridiculous knee jerk reactions we see these days?
In my opinion a lot of the blame lies in poor training and a lack of proper over site and concern on the part of the regulator...which leads us back to this part of your question...
...or is what we see these days a result of a bloated industry with excess personnel and a shortage of cash on its hands?
Part of this may be due to the fact that 30 or 40 years ago you would have been far less likely to be hired by TC if you were accident prone and unable to find employment in commercial aviation...
How often did students (or low time pilots... or TC inspectors )
Today it seems that the regulator is more interested in hiring ass kissers who will do as they are told rather than those who could actually do the job, so having accidents is a positive for being hired by TC, maybe?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I don't know where you got that from Cat - reading into things too much again.Cat Driver wrote:Are you saying that a TC inspector will allow you to do the ride with the gear down on a PPC check ride because you were taught this way?
I just said we left the gear down on a couple circuits during training because of the limitation on gear cycles and we wanted to get it done and go for dinner - I said nothing about TC or being taught to fly with my gear down or doing it on my ride.
If there aren't any light twins with gear cycle limitations - fine - I didn't know and I was only suggesting it was a possibility.
One cycle every 5 minutes to a maximum of 6 cycles followed by a 15 minute cool down.xsbank wrote:What are the limitations on a BE20 gear?
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Cat Driver
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Maybe these discussions get all clusterfu.ked by bringing issues into the discussions that do not relate to FTU's and their training practices?I don't know where you got that from Cat - reading into things too much again.
How many FTU's do multi engine training on King air 200's?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
C-GGGQ, what does the Seneca POH say to do approaches at?
Vmc isn't a problem going down-hill, it just becomes a problem when you stop going downhill.
Your TC fellow was probably just paranoid (probably with good reason!).
Vmc isn't a problem going down-hill, it just becomes a problem when you stop going downhill.
Your TC fellow was probably just paranoid (probably with good reason!).
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
I wasn't suggesting they were using 200s - I only thought maybe there could have been a limitation on the twin they used similar to the way 200s have limits. It was just an idea that obviously didn't apply in your view.Cat Driver wrote:Maybe these discussions get all clusterfu.ked by bringing issues into the discussions that do not relate to FTU's and their training practices?
How many FTU's do multi engine training on King air 200's?
I'll stop posting now, Cat, so I don't confuse your clusterfuck any more...
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Cat Driver
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If a company were to use an airplane that had a limitation that prevented them from teaching normal safe operating procedures such as retracting the gear after take off then they are using an airplane that is not suited to the job it is doing.I wasn't suggesting they were using 200s - I only thought maybe there could have been a limitation on the twin they used similar to the way 200s have limits. It was just an idea that obviously didn't apply in your view.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I know I said I'd stop posting on this thread... But I have to respond to this...
So why aren't they? Why don't you tell us Cat? C'mon? Why? Is it the school? Is it TC? Is it the crappy instructors? Why aren't they operating the gear?
I didn't have any idea why. Neither did anyone else - so I posted a suggestion that would have some semblance of possibility for their reasoning, however unlikely. To which you proceeded to disagree with and contort into something that it was never meant to be.
Jeeeeeeeeesssssssussssss it's like fucking pulling teeth. Get back to your clusterfuck...
No shit - They should be teaching normal operating procedures.If a company were to use an airplane that had a limitation that prevented them from teaching normal safe operating procedures such as retracting the gear after take off then they are using an airplane that is not suited to the job it is doing.
So why aren't they? Why don't you tell us Cat? C'mon? Why? Is it the school? Is it TC? Is it the crappy instructors? Why aren't they operating the gear?
I didn't have any idea why. Neither did anyone else - so I posted a suggestion that would have some semblance of possibility for their reasoning, however unlikely. To which you proceeded to disagree with and contort into something that it was never meant to be.
Jeeeeeeeeesssssssussssss it's like fucking pulling teeth. Get back to your clusterfuck...
For what it's worth, my Seneca II manual says Vmc 66 KIAS. I could not find a speed listed to fly an IFR approach, but it says to fly the downwind at 98 KIAS (I tend to round this to 100) and a final approach speed of 83 KIAS (79 if lightly loaded). It also gives a speed of 78KIAS for short field landing. I have found that 83 works fine to land on the 1800' at my home airpark.C-GGGQ wrote:i no longer have the POH but i believe it said 90-95 (and 5-10 above Vmc is normal for most light twins i've seen) he was definately just paranoid. as are some of the people making the gear down only rules
Wahunga!
Cat, I don't think Transport Canada has any right to even comment on gear down circuits. While I agree with you, it is no business of TC's if a certain FTU leaves their gear down or not. If I want to fly my Aztec around the patch all day with the gear down down, that's my call. Not TC's.
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Cat Driver
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What would be the findings in an accident report is one of these training flights has a engine failure and loss of control due to the gear being down?If I want to fly my Aztec around the patch all day with the gear down down, that's my call. Not TC's.
Or am I out to lunch as far as safety considerations are concerned when flying these airplanes?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Oh, I hears ya. On some of the older twins (Apache?) the gear is hydraulic, and only powered by one engine (left?) so, if THAT engine stops on take off, you're pretty much screwed. I know nothing about modern light twins though. But, the gear tends to go up pretty slowly. I must wonder if Seneca does circuits with their Bonanzas gear down??
I would never train with the gear down......just retracting and lowering the gear are essential in developing a "flow".
You are of course correct.....gear goes UP after take off and down for landing! Are there any questions?
I would never train with the gear down......just retracting and lowering the gear are essential in developing a "flow".
You are of course correct.....gear goes UP after take off and down for landing! Are there any questions?
