Taser photographer sues RCMP

[mellow_pilot]

Held a stapler in a threating manner....

Well there you go, I'm pretty sure that police are easily recognized, regardless of language. If you threaten a cop, regardless of any language barrier, I think it's pretty clear that you're not going to be compliant. I'd like you to try a little experiment. Have a friend hold a metal object as if to strike you. Have him scream random insults at you. Have him do this for 24 seconds. Time it. You will find that 24 seconds is much longer than you think.

I'm not saying that the cops were right, I'm just saying that your argument is full of logical holes. People dying in police includes people who were shot, then handcuffed per standard procedure, then have the paramedics come and look them over. Or some druged-out nut who dies of an overdose after being arrested. You might try thinking through and considering options and possibilities before coming up with an illogical argument.

[BoostedNihilist]

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[5400AirportRdSouth]

I agree with Rowdy, the odds of this being a couple of cowboy cops going to town on the guy, versus a reasonable and best-possible-choice-given-the-options are a lot slimmer in my opinion.

Not saying that there arent a few bad apples out there, they are human, not robots, so it is theoretically possible. I've known a few members in my time, havent met any out of control, unnaccountable types yet.

Theres bad people in every profession, however, given the screening they go through during their career the odds for a wack job getting issued a gun, badge and license to tase are longer than most I would say.

I would also guess that the type of personality and motivation that attract people to this type of work is also such that your peers would generally not look kindly on some out of control, unnaccountable cowboy type acting with impunity for too long.

Theres also good people that make bad mistakes in every profession as well, and every possibility that a mistake was made here. However, again, going with the odds on this one, that it was a reasoned response to the situation as they saw it and an unfortunate consequence that the man died, most likely due to other factors compounding the tasing into a fatality.

The media cannot pass up a story that even hints at police impropriety, it is such a titillating subject. Thats why we all know the story of the native guy getting dropped off out of town in Winnipeg and freezing to death on the long march home. Even though it happened almost 20 years ago ( 1990 ).

What they can pass up is the 10 times a day that someone is helped out, or saved by the actions of a cop, RCMP or otherwise. Getting the drunk husband in cuffs and away from the kids doesnt make the news. Neither does bundling a drunk driver off to the tank before he wipes someone out.

I dont see an overall pattern of abuse or impropriety here, all I see is the usual media hysteria.

I also dont have enough reliable info to go on to make an informed opinion about this particular case either. But, if I go with the odds, theyre going to find out this guy was at the least, unstable and unpredicatable, at worst, under the influence or just plain " batshit crazy ".

[Dust Devil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s

[5400AirportRdSouth]

A good example of batshit crazy.

When law enforcement make efforts to physically restrain or otherwise stop a person from what they are doing, a good idea would be to stop, move, cooperate. ( Regardless of wether you think they are right or wrong! The forum to discuss their conduct is NOT face to face, in the middle of a situation. )

If a person is willing to physically engage a police officer, through evasion or active resistance, they have to know what the consequences are going to be. If they know they are going to get a beat down or a taser, the act of continuing suggests a disconnection with reality that as a police officer would make me even more on gaurd.

Dont tase me bro?

Sorry Bra, but you asked for it. zZZZZZap.

The guy was a tard, but probably got a little more than he deserved, a knee on his neck and a linoleum sandwich probably would have been enough. Luckily Reno 911 was on scene to take him down.

[Dust Devil]

I like this one I think it shows that this guy deserved to be tased. Despite what the commentators said he wasn't tased for asking a question he was tased for resisting.

[Wilbur]

Once again, why was he not pepper sprayed? Because pepper spray/oleoresin capsicum (OC) is a HIGHER LEVEL OF FORCE than a Tazer. If you think the Taser was excessive, why would you advocate for an even higher force option?

How do you grab a hostage without a weapon, again, easy. Ever watch the UFC? Grab some women, child or guy smaller than you and put him in a choke hold.

Nobody esle around; says who? The members of the public standing their taking the video incident? Does holding a video camera mean the police don't need to be concerned for your safety when they resond to an incident? Obviously, members of the general public were there and at risk whether they realized it or not.

Gee whiz, the guy doesn't speak english and the cops were told that. Hello, if he couldn't speak english that pretty much rules out using tactical communication with him, and that makes the Taser the next lowest force option available. That's why he was Tasered.

[BoostedNihilist]

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[5400AirportRdSouth]

Some good points on both sides here.

Reading some of the recent articles about this story, it seems his flight landed 1630 ish and he didnt leave the customs-secured baggage claim area till 2230...at which point he forced his way back into the secured area by darting back through the door as someone left.. prompting the first calls to security.... the lost time and this strange behaviour is curious no?

Also to consider is the possibility that in his agitated state, he may well have suffered a stress related heart attack/stroke/seizure in any case and the tazing simply set it off, or added to / compounded what was a pre-existing condition.

A pre-existing condition that may well have been set off by the intense pain and discomfort of being doused in OC or having the boys go UFC on you....

Given other news sources claims of other inadvertant deaths due to tazers, I would agree that their use bears at the least, a review of the potential for lethality. I suspect (hope )this was already done when they introduced them into service, but a review using the data of all forces now using the tool, couldnt hurt. A full blown royal commission based on the medias latest hysteria...not so much.

In my opinion as well, tazing and pepper spray both should have a use BEFORE physical force. However, I am going on the assumption that tazers and their use have some basis in fact of being safe.

5400

[Wilbur]

My choke hold comment was to illustrate how easily this aggitated fellow could have escalated into taking a hostage; not how the police could have handled him.

OC spray is not without risk. It has no impact at all on some people, can trigger allergic reactions in others, and places considerable stress on the cardio-respitory system. OC also contamintes a fairly wide area, and can be picked up in building HVAC systems which spread the contamination even further. Using OC indoors will almost always result in bystanders suffering from exposure, and thereby also placing those who may have an adverse medical reaction at risk.

The Taser limits the risks of use to the perpetrator. The research to date does not show the Taser to have a risk of causing death or serious injury. That said, there does seem to be some indications that it may cause problems in a very small percentage of people, however, I don't think any coroner has ever ruled it as a cause of death. There are what, 3 or 4 cases in BC where the taser is suspect as being a contributing factor to a death. That's a pretty small number compared to the frequency of it's use; it's used a lot every day and has been in use in BC for about 10 years now.

There are no physical force/restraint options that do not carry a risk of harm or death. Weapons such as the taser, OC, batons, Arwen guns, stun grenades, etc. are called "less lethal weapons." Not non-lethal. The point of the force continuum is to rank these force options from least likely to most likely to cause harm or death. Even if every incident where the taser may be suspect in causing death turned out to be true, it would still most likely remain where it is, or very close, on the force continuum.

It you want to get rich, invent an effective, reliable and truly non-lethal weapon system to replace what's in use now. Every law enforcement agency in the civilized world will line up to buy them.

[Wilbur]

PS. If you are perturbed in Vancouver, don't speak the same language as the cop dealing with you, throw shit around, brandish a weapon/projectile of some sort, and generally appear off your rocker...yes, you are almost certainly going to experience the feel of 50k volts.

[Four1oh]

Guy I know is an ex-cop and says he'd take 10 taser hits in a day over 1 second of pepper spray/tear gas in a heart beat.

I had the same conversation with an RCMP. He said at least when the tasering is over, the pain stops(excepting the little pain the probes leave) compared to pepper spray or tear gas. That shit stays for a long time, and, even hours later, you accidentally rub your eye, the burning starts all over again.

[mellow_pilot]

Guy I know is an ex-cop and says he'd take 10 taser hits in a day over 1 second of pepper spray/tear gas in a heart beat.

I had the same conversation with an RCMP. He said at least when the tasering is over, the pain stops(excepting the little pain the probes leave) compared to pepper spray or tear gas. That shit stays for a long time, and, even hours later, you accidentally rub your eye, the burning starts all over again.

Same story from my guy. Can't say anything about pepper spray, but from experience, CS (tear gas) is not pleasant. Chemical agents are no fun. Long story short, don't give the cops a reason to use any force! Why argue with a cop? I mean really. If they show up, comply. If you're being abused or your rights are violated, file a complaint and sue. It's that simple. I realize that the system is not perfect, however, there is still no reason to get in a physical altercation with law enforcement. (unless you're in San Andreas and on a kill-frenzy, then you can go nuts.)

[BoostedNihilist]

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[Wilbur]

Typically, a corner's report would say something along the lines of "cause of death was caridac arrest/heart failure due to......(insert drug overdose, disease, taser, etc). To my knowledge, the taser has not been identified as causing heart failure or any other condition leading to death.

But, even if the taser is linked to causing deaths in some people, why place it next to firearms when other force options are already known to contribute to deaths and serious injury at likely an even higher rate. Personally, I'd take the taser any day over being on the recieving end of a baton strike or being twisted like a pretzel into some joint popping restraint hold.

I can also tell you from personal experience, anytime you have to lay hands on a person to restrain them, you are at a very high risk of injury. It places you in close contact with a resistant or violent person, and if they are stronger, drugged, or a more skilled fighter you are going to get a serious beating at minimum, and quite likely killed. If you can't quickly control the person, you very quickly are forced to go for your gun. A lot more people have been shot by police in this type of situation than are even suspect of having the taser play a role in their death.

The taser isn't used because of "possible risk." It's used when lessor force options are not practicable or haven't worked. If someone is at "imminent risk" of serious harm or death, the suspect is going to be shot and killed. The taser doesn't work on everyone, and the cops would have no business trying to use it when a victim's life is on the line.

Use of the choke hold has been eliminated most everywhere because it was proven to be the cause of too many deaths, and offers no real tactical advantage over any number of other restraint options. Whereas, the taser is at worst suspect of being a contributing factor in a very small number of deaths, and is proven to greatly reduce the risk of injury or death to both officers and the vast majority of suspects.

[Troubleshot]

I bet this mountie wishes he shot first and asked questions later. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/20 ... mirut.html In most cases the criminals out arm the cops and I don't blame this guys one bit for putting their lives first....jesus... they are the good guys here, don't forget that they are responding to the scene for a reason, they just don't show up to your moms house and tazer her for fun. These people are criminals are should be treated as such until the court says otherwise.

[the_professor]

they are the good guys here, don't forget that they are responding to the scene for a reason, they just don't show up to your moms house and tazer her for fun. These people are criminals are should be treated as such until the court says otherwise.

Uh, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the mounties do (or should) treat every subject at a call as "guilty until proven innocent" by the courts?

The point of this case, and dozens of others in recent times with the RCMP, is that they could not possibly have come to a reasonable conclusion regarding the man during the 24 seconds they spent on the scene, especially when the first words out of one of the three officer's mouths immediately upon arrival, and recorded on the tape, was "Can I taser him? Can I taser him?"

The mounties are making a mess of their operations far too often. Ask Ian Bush's mom, whose son was shot dead for an open can of beer.

Or the guy who was suspected of robbing a store, where another mountie witnessed the officer shoot the guy while his hands were up.

Oh, and by the way, the mounties investigate themselves in all these incidents, and invariably find that they are not at fault.

The list goes on and on, and each incident goes to show that all too often the mounties don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Someone needs to find out why.

[Troubleshot]

they are the good guys here, don't forget that they are responding to the scene for a reason, they just don't show up to your moms house and tazer her for fun. These people are criminals are should be treated as such until the court says otherwise.

Uh, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the mounties do (or should) treat every subject at a call as "guilty until proven innocent" by the courts?

The point of this case, and dozens of others in recent times with the RCMP, is that they could not possibly have come to a reasonable conclusion regarding the man during the 24 seconds they spent on the scene, especially when the first words out of one of the three officer's mouths immediately upon arrival, and recorded on the tape, was "Can I taser him? Can I taser him?"

The mounties are making a mess of their operations far too often. Ask Ian Bush's mom, whose son was shot dead for an open can of beer.

Or the guy who was suspected of robbing a store, where another mountie witnessed the officer shoot the guy while his hands were up.

Oh, and by the way, the mounties investigate themselves in all these incidents, and invariably find that they are not at fault.

The list goes on and on, and each incident goes to show that all too often the mounties don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Someone needs to find out why.

I'm not saying the Mounties are perfect but I will say that 95% the time the person(s) performing the criminal acts deserve the force they recieve. And yes I am saying in most cases when an officer is by himself it should be guilty until proven innocent until the scene is secure (for everyones sake) that means everyone in cuffs, in back of squad cars, and everyone just calm the @#$! down while I figure out who is to blame. Now shooting someone in the back is murder no matter how you look at it but tazering a guy because he will not get on the ground is reasonable...well it's that or we can ask him please....or pretty please. The guy in the video asking "can I taze him" is probably asking his supervisor, it's that or a night sick to the head, Hey! he's under arrest!! so come peacefully or not

[fogghorn]

they are the good guys here, don't forget that they are responding to the scene for a reason, they just don't show up to your moms house and tazer her for fun. These people are criminals are should be treated as such until the court says otherwise.

Uh, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the mounties do (or should) treat every subject at a call as "guilty until proven innocent" by the courts?

The point of this case, and dozens of others in recent times with the RCMP, is that they could not possibly have come to a reasonable conclusion regarding the man during the 24 seconds they spent on the scene, especially when the first words out of one of the three officer's mouths immediately upon arrival, and recorded on the tape, was "Can I taser him? Can I taser him?"

The mounties are making a mess of their operations far too often. Ask Ian Bush's mom, whose son was shot dead for an open can of beer.

Or the guy who was suspected of robbing a store, where another mountie witnessed the officer shoot the guy while his hands were up.

Oh, and by the way, the mounties investigate themselves in all these incidents, and invariably find that they are not at fault.

The list goes on and on, and each incident goes to show that all too often the mounties don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Someone needs to find out why.

I expect there will be quite a hue and cry when this video get's released. As to whether anything will be changed is the $64 question. Essentially the police do little more than act as a mop up crew. They respond to calls in a keystone cop fashion, and citizens end up dying way more often than they should. In the last couple of years we have witnessed things that in any other place or era might be termed executions by police. Ian Bush, a guy in Vanderhoof and Williams lake were all killed by police over the past couple of years, with little or no satisfactory explanations. Also, how about the death of two civilians on Kingsway 2 weeks ago? The word is that the police vehicle was travelling at about 120 kliks in a residential area with no lights on, to attend a reported suicide attempt. That sounds more like manslaughter than police work. It's pathetic, crime on the streets in the lower mainland is right out of control, when it happens the cops send a mop up crew, and that is the last we hear about it. Good work guys, the firemen or ambulance attendants can do that, and they would have very likely diffused the situation at YVR without causing another death! I mean for God's sake, the guy was unarmed and agitated, who did they think he was - the hulk or something?? Anyone trained in controlling people could have taken this guy down with little or no chance of injury to him or the police. What is going on here?

[mellow_pilot]

So 24 seconds is not enough to determine that a guy threatening police with an object (stapler or otherwise) should be contained? And yet you're all so sure that this guy was not a freaking Polish Ju-Jitsu champion? Who is to say that he didn't have a detonator rigged to the stapler?

That's crazy m_p!! You're just coming up with random shit now! And there in lies the irony my friends. 'The guy was not a threat cause he spoke a different language' is the same bullshit as 'the guy being a threat cause he didn't speak english.'

Too often people make asinine arguments for lack of forethought. This 24 seconds thing really gets me. I mean it really pisses me off. A couple other comments like, "shooting a guy in the back is murder," while of good intention suffer from the same generalization. If the guy has his back turned and lobs a grenade, or nerve agent at you, is shooting him ok then? In fact I can think of plenty of examples where shooting a guy from behind would be my preferred solution. I know what the author of that comment was trying to say, and I agree with the sentiment. I do, however, see a trend in these discussions where people cease to read, think and respond with logic. They read with their hearts and respond through their asses.

Sure, it would be great if you could immobilize suspects or belligerents with a guaranteed non-lethal device. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist.

Oh, scary, 50K volts! The shock you get from the door-knob after you drag your feet across the carpet in a drunken stupor on Friday night when your girlfriend tells you it's time to go to bed (theoretically of course), is 100 000 volts. People see big numbers, know nothing of how the device works and freak out. Now, is that an asinine comparison? Absolutely! Glad you've been paying attention! A door-knob is not a dangerous device, it is not designed to subdue humans. But it is exactly this kind of argument that plagues these discussions. I hope this has opened a few minds. (A faint hope I know).

Drop the random, context-less, statistics. Too may people dying at the hands of police? According to what benchmark? How many died? What was the cause? Who is giving you the information? Do you really think the news crew is going to race to a scene, then find the nice, boring, rosy story about how the cops showed up and did their jobs, or are they going to find the one guy who "saw the whole thing, and the cops were out of control!" (albeit that he saw the whole thing through a drug-induced haze)

I'm not saying that the cops are always right. I'm not saying that we should ignore anything the news says, but please, take the time to think critically.

[fogghorn]

Drop the random, context-less, statistics. Too may people dying at the hands of police? According to what benchmark? How many died? What was the cause? Who is giving you the information?

Who cares how many died?? Ian Bush died by gunshot to the back of the head (while in police custody in the detachment - video of which was conveniently lost - but the rcmp investigated themselves and determined that it was all ok) - execution style - thats a statistic for you, maybe you should explain to the parents how that is justifiable. Your arguments are ludicrous.

[lucky37]

Apparently the video of the incident will be released today (Nov 14th) , so now everyone can see what actually happened.

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopSto ... ser_071114

Video of a confrontation between the RCMP and a distraught man in Vancouver International Airport who died after Mounties used a Taser on him will be made public later today.

Taser victim Robert Dziekanski, of Pieszyce, Poland, had flown to B.C. to start a new life as a Canadian.
Taser victim Robert Dziekanski, of Pieszyce, Poland, had flown to B.C. to start a new life as a Canadian.

The man who shot the footage warned the video is disturbing.

"There's going to be some really awful screaming on it, and it's going to be hard to watch because it is what it is -- it's a man dying on film," Paul Pritchard told CTV British Columbia on Tuesday.

The RCMP officers confronted Polish national Robert Dziekanski on Oct. 14 when he started acting out in the early-morning hours.

Pritchard said the footage will show the following:

* Dziekanski was very agitated, acting irrational and throwing things around when police arrived
* Witnesses were able to calm him
* There were four RCMP officers on scene, not three as the RCMP have claimed
* Once they arrived, the officers made no real attempt to engage Dziekanski or defuse the situation.

Police gestured to Dziekanski that he should back up. In response, the 40-year-old raised his hands and retreated.

"He's almost excited the police are there -- somebody who works there can sort him out," Pritchard said about the video.

"The police surround him and he puts his shoulders like this," Pritchard said, demonstrating a hands-up motion, "and walks away from them. That's when they shoot him."

The tape then shows the following, he said:

* Upon arrival, the Taser was quickly drawn;
* The Taser was first used about 35 seconds after police arrived on scene;
* As three officers held Dziekanski down, a second attempt to Taser him was made;
* After they had Dziekanski restrained, an officer placed his knee on Dziekanski's neck and held it there, and;
* Although the officers were trained in CPR, none of them attempted to revive Dziekanski after he lost consciousness.

Emergency radio logs leaked to CTV British Columbia show a 12-minute gap from when Dziekanski lost consciousness and when B.C. Ambulance arrived.

The airport has its own paramedics who could have been at the scene within two minutes, but the airport supervisor did not call them, CTV British Columbia's Peter Grainger reported.

Dziekanski, who didn't speak English, had just arrived from Poland on his first airliner trip ever. He had come to Canada to be with his mother, Zofia Cisowski, who lives in Kamloops.

However, for reasons that are still not clear, it took 10 hours for him to clear customs. Dziekanski and his mother never connected, and she left the airport to return to Kamloops.

The Polish government wants the tragedy to be thoroughly examined.

"We would be grateful for the speediest investigation and if there was wrong-doing we need to know about it," Maciej Krych, the Polish consul general told CTV British Columbia on Oct. 23.

"It's disgusting to watch but it's an example of how not to handle a situation," Pritchard said of his video. "We need to do something different -- different procedures. Something needs to change so this doesn't happen again."

The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP has filed its own complaint about the case. The RCMP's Integrated Homicide Investigation Team is also investigating the incident.

Some cellphone video of the fatal confrontation had been released previously but Pritchard's video is of much higher quality.

Pritchard turned the video over to the RCMP, who then told him it could be up to two years before they returned the footage. When he threatened to sue, they returned it to him.

While Cisowski said last week she wanted to view the video, her lawyer said Tuesday that she is now having second thoughts.

She still supports releasing the video to the public. Cisowski will bury her son on Saturday at 11 a.m. in Kamloops.

With a report from CTV British Columbia's Peter Grainger

[mellow_pilot]

Drop the random, context-less, statistics. Too may people dying at the hands of police? According to what benchmark? How many died? What was the cause? Who is giving you the information?

Who cares how many died?? Ian Bush died by gunshot to the back of the head (while in police custody in the detachment - video of which was conveniently lost - but the rcmp investigated themselves and determined that it was all ok) - execution style - thats a statistic for you, maybe you should explain to the parents how that is justifiable. Your arguments are ludicrous.

Was it "execution style" or is that just a descriptor you're using to back your version of what happened and make the cops look like monsters? Did he pull a shiv and try to stab another officer and got shot for his troubles? Did he uncover corruption within the force and was killed to keep him quiet? My point is that with less than all the facts, wild accusations and quick conclusions are the norm. If this was an aviation accident investigation, most people on the board would be furious at the amount of speculation.

Everyone is so always so quick to point out how little the public knows about aviation and is pissed when people who know nothing of the industry draw inaccurate conclusions. Yet here, instead of asking questions, the same scatter-gun approach is used to decide who to blame and determine exactly what happened, even though most people have no freaking clue what really went down.
cheers to the readers

[Cat Driver]

Well mellow_pilot pilot did you watch the video on the 6 P.M. Vancouver TV news?

Any comments?

[Freddy_Francis]

I saw the video Cat..and let me say..I think the problem is undertrained officers. What is police officer training anyways? the first 2 days are gun and taser training and the rest of the time its how to sit at the bottom of the hill and give a guy a 500$ ticket for going 55 in a 50 zone. Now im not gonna take on an entire force. However...there is enough bullshit i've seen such as the famous "turning on their lights to run a red" and the stupid traps they set up which are ridiculious such as the bottom of the hill example I just gave. What I saw was disgusting and I'd like to meet the moron who said repeadetly "hit him again". This isn't an isolated incident and nevermind the fact that he was OBVIOUSLY aggiated the police were warned he didnt speak english and thats how you react? Someone write the RCMP a memo saying that the arms they carry dont add inches to their dick.