Pilot found guilty of criminal negligence

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:53 am

For sake of discussion I want to flip the coin over...a couple of people have come forward and taken the position that you say nothing to Transport, TSB and some have even suggested that you should seek legal advice even before you put pen to paper for an internal company report. Whatever happened to owning up to your mistakes or does that only apply in life if you aren't in serious shit? Some posts come across as promoting the idea that you are only guilty if "they" can prove it. That you should stonewall, avoid the pointed questions and not be forthright about your actions that may have contributed to an accident and its fair ball. Accidents happen and the quest for truth as to how it happened begins, most on this board jump on the bandwagon and armchair quarterback every angle in an effort to figure it out. The goal is to learn from it and hopefully avoid a similar fate. I personally think it took guts for this guy to stand and own up. To do otherwise would have been a disservice to the profession and process of accident investigation. If the pilot flying the aircraft you were about to accept off the flight line over-temped the engines on the trip before yours would you expect him to keep his mouth shut or own up? Where does one draw the line when it comes to owning up to your mistakes? I don’t think the pilot in question was stupid for owning up and admitting his errors, rather I think it was a brave, selfless act and he should be commended, not condemned. To hide behind lawyers, lies or omissions would have been a cowardly way out and I suspect something that he decided he could not live with. I have a ton of respect for the guy and hope at some point in his life he finds some inner peace. Taking responsibility for his actions was a small step towards that…

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:54 am

Matrix, you are correct, but, I don't think jail time will serve any positive purpose.

If his going to jail serves as a deterrant to others not to be so negligent I consider that a positive.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:01 am

"Taking responsibility for his actions was a small step towards"...putting himself in jail! You keep dreaming that dream there, Hot Fuel.
There is nothing wrong with admitting when you're wrong. It's just a matter of doing it correctly to prevent the end of a, your carrier. b, you life, as you know it.
I say again...never admit anything to anybody.
Do you not watch the Discovery Channel?
If they have a case against you....let them make it....don't make it for them.
Have you ever heard..."You have the right to remain silent. Everything you say......."????? Yes, you have the right....do you have the brains to do so?

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:11 am

I'm not dreaming...I'd probably lawyer up. My post was for discussion purposes. I'd like to say that I'd stand-up and take my medicine if and when the time came (my pa, rest his soul, would be proud) but I'm not sure I actually have the stuff to stand up and actually do it. I'm not proud of that statement...I'd like to think I'd do the right thing but the system works for us in these situations. A sad comment on the times we live in. A cliche comes to mind...two wrongs don't make a right.

The question remains where does one draw the line?

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:13 am

I don’t think the pilot in question was stupid for owning up and admitting his errors, rather I think it was a brave, selfless act and he should be commended, not condemned. To hide behind lawyers, lies or omissions would have been a cowardly way out

Wow

Are you serious??
TC does not have your best interests at heart. Dont make it easy for them to crucify you. You dont hide behind lawyers you use them to serve a purpose. Thats not cowardly thats just common sense.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:22 am

Okay, Hot Fuel, I think I MIGHT admit to a minor infraction (after some research) to my CP. It'd have to be very minor though. But, I guess it's a matter of degree. Would I write a letter to TC and the Police, admitting I busted two regs, resulting in the death of a passenger.....um, NO!

CP is correct. These people ARE out to screw you. Do not forget that.

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:22 am

To hide behind lawyers, lies or omissions would have been a cowardly way out

I'm not dreaming...I'd probably lawyer up

[quote

So you're a coward?

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:24 am

a cowardly way out and I suspect something that he decided he could not live with.

For some morale dilemmas are a bitch...and that’s all I'm posing here...the morale issue of taking your medicine or not and having to live with yourself afterwards.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:36 am

What's the plus side to "Taking your medicine." You outgrew that mindset in the school playground.....I would hope.

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:39 am

So you're a coward?

In all honesty I would have to say if the shoe fits wear it. I'd be terrified of sharing a cell with a guy wanting to change my name to "bitch".

I'd like to think I'd be big enough to do the right thing...but push come to shove.

It may work for him, tossing yourself at the mercey of the court, accepting responsibilty etc. I truely hope he serves no time, as many have said it serves no purpose. He has to live with his actions or in this case inaction. He will learn nothing from jail time and we don't need to be protected from him. There is little doubt in my mind that he has relived this over and over in his mind, a fate that is probably worse that jail.

How about the "responsible" people above him within this company? Should we be shaking their hands and tooting their horns for maintaining their silence?

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:45 am

xsbank wrote:I think a conviction of criminal negligence carries a mandatory jail sentence? Its been years since I did any law courses. Anyone? I know there's at least one pilot on here with a law degree.

They're trying for a conviction under S.220 Causing death by criminal negligence.

Because there was no weapen being used, there's no minimum sentence and a maximum of life.

I imagine that a charge of this nature, if convicted, will carry with it a fairly lengthy jail term. The reason they've waited so long is because this is new territory for Canada. Whatever happens with this case, a statute will be set for all future cases, not something they want to screw up.

If it is determined during the trial that the evidence doesn't prove such an offence but does prove an offence under section 249 (Dangerous operation [of a motor vehicle, vessel or aircraft] causing death), the accused may still be convicted of an offence under that section. The crown will have no problem acheiving a conviction with the lesser burdon of proof under this charge and a conviction still carries a maximum of fourteen years.

Either way, unless our boy gets a really good lawyer, he is in big trouble. This is a really good lesson for all of us that think risking our own lives along with those aboard makes us untouchable by the law. Stay safe and if you find yourself in trouble, don't talk to anyone besides your lawyer, especially TC as Doc pointed out.

As far as charging the company, it'd be a lot harder to find enough evidence to make it stick. They probably weren't stupid enough to sign their own death warrant like this pilot did.

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:47 am

What's the plus side to "Taking your medicine." You outgrew that mindset in the school playground.....I would hope.

I think there is a plus side to taking your medicine. We all have to live with our choices until its your time.

One can live their life by holding in things that cause them to lose sleep or not. I'd like to think that so far I've lived my live on the high road...If it was me in his shoes I don't know if I'd have the stomache, I hope I never have to find out for sure. In the meantime I respect his choice...

2R · Post by 2R » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:54 am

So is there going to be a pool on how long he gets ???

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:00 pm

I say 5-10 years and out in 3

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:06 pm

He will learn nothing from jail time and we don't need to be protected from him.

perhaps, but...

This is a really good lesson for all of us that think risking our own lives along with those aboard makes us untouchable by the law.

Its not all about him

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:15 pm

the court case will be all about him, reinforcing the fact that it is up to us to say no. Us using the excuse that we'll be out of a job unless we break the rules is no different then the owners pathetic excuse of being out of a business unless they break the rules. Sure I'd love to see them in the trial as well, but that won't happen, it sucks but its the truth.

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:21 pm

the court case will be all about him, reinforcing the fact that it is up to us

Like I said. Its not all about him.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:24 pm

He clearly felt guilty, and tried to make amends by admitting his mistakes early on.

I am still interested to know what happened with the lawsuits, especially the part by the passengers against Keystone and Transport.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:29 pm

He must have felt guilty....he admitted it. A very ill advised move.

How may of us would be willing to go to court to back the guy up during sentencing? Anybody have a date? I'd be willing to go. I really don't believe in jail term, and I'd be happy to have my voice heard!

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:18 pm

Doc wrote:"Taking responsibility for his actions was a small step towards"...putting himself in jail! You keep dreaming that dream there, Hot Fuel.
There is nothing wrong with admitting when you're wrong. It's just a matter of doing it correctly to prevent the end of a, your carrier. b, you life, as you know it.
I say again...never admit anything to anybody.
Do you not watch the Discovery Channel?
If they have a case against you....let them make it....don't make it for them.
Have you ever heard..."You have the right to remain silent. Everything you say......."????? Yes, you have the right....do you have the brains to do so?

This is Canada, not the US; you don't have the right to remain silent, sorry to burst your bubble. You have the right to "retain and instruct council without delay." If your ass is in a crack, definitely take advantage of that one and let him/her do ALL the talking.

I'm hoping that he'll get no time since there are no minimum sentences for the convictions. Let's face it, his life was shattered by the accident just as badly as those of his passengers. He's not a risk to society in anyway; last I heard he wasn't even flying anymore. In my mind, jail time would be a miscarriage of justice; especially since his wonderful employer is still operating and from what my sources tell me; he's learned nothing.

One of the things that troubles me and I would hope that Tayfel's lawyer will bring it up on appeal. This took five years to go to trial. I have vague memories of other convictions being thrown out because the crown took too long to get their shit together; this seems to me to be a classic example of that.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:31 pm

CP wrote:
the court case will be all about him, reinforcing the fact that it is up to us
Like I said. Its not all about him.

Point taken... a little slow on the uptake today

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:32 pm

Whether you own up to your 'mistakes' depends upon whether you believe in a retribution model or a rehabilitation model. You were bad, you get spanked; or you were bad you get a lecture and some retraining. Canada has historically had a rehabilitation model but, with the Conservatives, is moving more to retribution with longer sentences and less probation.

In a company setting, frequently you lose your job. Up until now, in Canada, you got a fine and a suspension on your license then you carried on. Now we are seeing the first criminal charge, which to me is a giant step backwards. What we've been working for is a system where you are re-trained or re-educated for screwing up, but now that TC is abrogating its responsibility I am afraid that we are going to see the courts take on this role, and the courts do their job with jail sentences, community work, probation, tools that up to now had no part of us striving to do our jobs.

I am not, in any way, condoning any of the actions of this pilot or Keystone, but if the regulator had been doing his job, likely this outfit would never have reached this dreadful condition. I think this whole incident is a metaphor for how bad the aviation system has become in Canada and points out, with bells on, how useless SMS will be for regulating operators who are not interested in safety but are interested solely in profits.

If you guys think this pilot is getting his 'just deserts' in some kind of Old Testament, eye-for-an-eye system, just keep writing those letters, boys and girls, and you too will be able to feel righteous while you learn to make license plates and lose your right to ever hold a Commercial license ever again.

CP · Post by CP » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:40 pm

Let's face it, his life was shattered by the accident just as badly as those of his passengers

Difference is they had no say in the matter. it was not their bad judgement that shattered their lives.

He's not a risk to society in anyway

Well at one point he obviously was. How many times did he get away with it? His bad decision making finally caught up with him. How can you be so sure his decision making has improved to the point where he would no longer pose a risk to his passengers?

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:48 pm

CP wrote:
Let's face it, his life was shattered by the accident just as badly as those of his passengers
Difference is they had no say in the matter. it was not their bad judgement that shattered their lives.

He's not a risk to society in anyway

Well at one point he obviously was. How many times did he get away with it? His bad decision making finally caught up with him. How can you be so sure his decision making has improved to the point where he would no longer pose a risk to his passengers?

He's out of flying; how much less of a risk can he possibly be?

carholme · Post by **carholme** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:26 pm

xsbank;

You nailed it right on the head. As tragic as this entire situation is, IF the regulator had been doing it's job in the first place, this may have never reached this sorry state.

I was two blocks away when this aircraft hit the ground. Keystone was the topic of many conversations around St. Andrews airport concerning their questionable practices, long before this event took place.

I refer back to many of my earlier comments, that TC is the enabler of many of the bad situations which exist, certainly in 703.

carholme