Cat there's no statute of limitations on indictable offences and crim neg causing death is an idictable offence.
I'm a little confused on your stance, do you feel the pilot shouldn't be charged or at least lose his licence for the rest of his life?
Like most from my generation I was exposed to the culture of risk taking such as no seats in bush planes and horrendous over loads.
I was more fortunate than most because a lot of experienced high time pilots took the time to explain to me that the rules were put there for a reason and very early in my career I refused to compromise and cut corners for any employer.
Shouldn't this be the attitude that you should have towards this case? You're now the experienced high time guy preaching when to say no... This pilot should have said no and now he's paying a minor penalty in comparison to what his passenger paid. Yes I know you feel TC is corrupt and partly responsible but are you defending the pilot for not saying no?
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We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
Professor, stop being such an obnoxious prick and apologize to Widow - she has every right to express her opinion on this site, and your sanctimonious postings aren't doing anything to improve these discussions.
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Id like to know why for years transport has been told by people working at Keystone whats going on and yet nothing is ever done. Why is that no one wants to touch them, all of us on here know you read the forums?
I never knew so many people could sling so much mud, while seated in armchairs!
Wow. I keep hearing all the "warm fuzzy" terms like "PDM, and "company culture", and yet, some seem to have lost touch with the simple fact, that somebody died (lost their life) due to the absolute stupid actions of an individual. And, it is criminal. He has been convicted, in a court of law, with KILLING someone, through HIS actions. WAKE THE F%CK UP! And, while you're all at it, GROW UP.
Somebody DIED. Is that starting to sink in?
Did somebody actually say "Nobody supported his right to say, NO." Christ people, he departed without enough gas on an airplane!
Someone compared him to Al Haynes? Are you brain dead?
Some have said "Keystone, TC, and the pilot are equally responsible? I don't think TC, or the owner of Keystone were at the controls that day?
Someone said, that at 300 and 1, he didn't have much time to decide where to put it? He overflew several fuel stops knowing he was running out of fuel. Any one of them would have been just dandy.
I don't agree with "the_professor" very often, but when he says a "mistake" is tossing a cotton sweater in the dryer....he's correct. This was NO mistake!
Someone made a comment that we "cherry pick" the rules we want to obey. How true. But taking enough gas to make the trip is NOT a rule that would be put in that category? Driving 10 kms over the limit, perhaps is.
So, we can all sit around wasting tissues, or we can start preventing this kind of thing from happening again. Put the excuses away. Forget the "warm fuzzy" terms. Forget all the "politically correct" bullshit. The buck stops in the left seat. Always has. Always will. Somebody died here. Somebody has to pay the price. Excuses just don't "cut it" anymore. They never should have.
Pay attention here. Be careful out there.
And, I'm outta here!
I wonder the same.... I also wonder why anyone in their right mind would fork up $10000 to fly for that weasle... there are ALOT of other better safer alternatives around Winnipeg...
stratcat wrote:Id like to know why for years transport has been told by people working at Keystone whats going on and yet nothing is ever done. Why is that no one wants to touch them, all of us on here know you read the forums?
xsbank wrote:Professor, stop being such an obnoxious prick and apologize to Widow - she has every right to express her opinion on this site, and your sanctimonious postings aren't doing anything to improve these discussions.
Thanks xs (I know you're worried about me taking a dive for those smokes!), but I don't need an apology. There are a few who will never look farther up the chain than that last link.
I will continue to believe, as will others, that more can be learned by asking why a pilot made an error (or in this case, was negligent), and looking for ways to rectify those whys and wherefores.
Look at the little grand rapids crash -- that legacy lives on -- think about family and estate next time you come to the cross roads we all face from time to time -- is there something worse than jail term -- u bet your ass there is -- leaving your loved ones to pay for your mistake
Trying to understand the current thread a little more -- why did he not have enough fuel in his tanks -- was the airplane incapable of carrying return fuel (load aside) -- meaning would full tanks or at least fuel capacity allow legal IFR fuel or is this a matter that the aircraft was not able to ever physically carry sufficient fuel --
There was no evidence found that indicated company management personnel pressured pilots to accomplish revenue flights in poor weather. The pilot indicated that she had experienced such pressure from time to time from customers. The company did, however, approve of pilots flying low, based on their own judgement, to see if a clear horizon existed below the cloud base if deteriorating weather conditions were encountered en route.
I'm pretty sure that is done to keep it from sounding too personal and more business like. But they do in fact stray and breakout gender in at least one instance...
The occurrence pilot was aware of the chief pilot's recommended procedure; however, she preferred to use a different technique learned on other aircraft and applied the carburettor heat only when areas of precipitation were entered or carburettor ice occurred.
Id like to know why for years transport has been told by people working at Keystone whats going on and yet nothing is ever done. Why is that no one wants to touch them, all of us on here know you read the forums?
This question seems to go unanswered forever.
You now work in a system where accountability rests with the pilot in command only.
Now that everyone understands the reality of how the system works " DON'T FLY ANY AIRPLANE UNLESS YOU ARE WITHIN THE RULES!! "
Without line pilots the companies who want you to fly in contravention of law will only have the owners, ops managers and chief pilots to fly the trips.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Bob S...."operational control" just one more, politically correct, warm fuzzy term.
You know Bob, I've been practicing what I preach for well over twenty thousand hours. I'm not really into the PC, warm fuzzy terms. Bottom line? I look after my own ass. Therefore, my passengers don't have to worry about their's.
Was that too blase? It's always worked for me.
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Last edited by Doc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doc, do you not need a support system? Is there nothing for which you "count" on someone else to do their job in keeping you safe?
Say, the boss making sure no one else is using the a/c outside of it's limitations and/or neglecting to tell someone they've done so to ensure the a/c hasn't received "hidden" damage?
Say, the dispatcher being trained to know, among other things, why it is important to call SAR if you are missing, and then actually doing so in a timely manner?
Say, the AME not being overworked and/or undertrained such that they are capable of performing maintenance "properly"?
C'mon Doc, I don't believe you think you are immune to be harmed by the errors of others.
In the context of this thread Widow, all the support in the whole bloody world isn't worth a pinch of coon shit, if you have no fuel in the tanks! I hear ya, but you're beating a dead horse on the issue as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes you are the last line of defense. Blaming the "other guy" gets a little tired after a while. The whole problem here is simple. Nobody is really willing to blame themselves. Read that last sentence over one more time. Nobody is willing to blame themselves. Now, you can go on about "SAR", "hidden damage" and "counting on someone else" to keep you safe, but the bottom line remains. The buck stops in the left seat.
Why do you keep going back to the "warm and fuzzy" politically correct line of thinking? If Keystone were (and it sure isn't) the safest, best run airline in the history of the world, an empty fuel tank still would have yielded the same result. Nobody with even half a brain will run out of gas because "somebody told them to". Nobody takes responsibility for their actions anymore. Why? Because we have so MANY others we can blame. Why? Because we now have a "chain" of events we can blame. We have "company culture" we can blame. I say again. When you're upside down in cloud, with nothing on the gauges but the maker's name....YOU put yourself there.
Widow, this guy wasn't "harmed by the errors of others". He was harmed by his own errors. And somebody died. Because of HIS errors. HIS actions.
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Last edited by Doc on Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Was Tayfel the first Keystone pilot to fly without adequate fuel?
If not, did Keystone know that pilots were flying without adequate fuel?
There are many posters to various threads who indicate that this was a common practice at Keystone (and some who say they still push the regs).
If Keystone pilots were regularly flying without adequate fuel (and therefore all were criminally negligent) and the OM/CP permitted it (and so also criminally negligent), why is Tayfel the only one charged?
Of course he should be held responsible. Of course he was the last line of defense. But that does not excuse the negligence of others before him in the chain.
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Last edited by Widow on Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
