JAZZ

jazzpilot · Post by **jazzpilot** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:03 pm

What I think that Jmad is really upset about is not the fact the starting wages are low just like all the other airlines, but that the wages dont go up to a respectable wage at all in the future (at least for the f/o 's) and if you happen to live in yvr or yyc the upgrade times are very long. I think that if they brought up the wages for the F/Os after say 4 or 5 years to more livable levels this would be the best company to work for.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:15 pm

jazzpilot wrote: I think that if they brought up the wages for the F/Os after say 4 or 5 years to more livable levels this would be the best company to work for.

What would you consider a "livable level?"

pilotbzh · Post by **pilotbzh** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:34 pm

50K is livable if you're other haft makes 25 you should be close to average...

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a.htm

Now look at you.... remember it's after taxes.....

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:37 pm

I may have hacked him pretty hard but the fact is, in his first few posts, he did not simpy say the wages are low and it would be nice to change them. He basically called every Jazz pilot a sheep because they are not backing his quest for more money when the reality is, he knew the wages when he signed up. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to choose Jazz. If the wages stink, maybe a better approach to getting support would be the course of action instead of calling all of his co-workers names because they aren't wildcat striking to raise the wages.

sportingrifle · Post by **sportingrifle** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:24 am

Something to consider. Every time ALPA Jazz has had the opportuinty to do so, they have offered to fly a mainline airplane for nothing, just to capture the flying. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Irregardless, after a decade of this, it has sent a pretty strong message to your management that you are will ing to accept the very wages that you are complaining about, just to have a seat to sit in. I would suggest that in your next negots, stop chasing airplanes, and start chasing salary. Just a thought.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:10 am

Something to consider. Every time ALPA Jazz has had the opportuinty to do so, they have offered to fly a mainline airplane for nothing, just to capture the flying. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Irregardless, after a decade of this, it has sent a pretty strong message to your management that you are will ing to accept the very wages that you are complaining about, just to have a seat to sit in. I would suggest that in your next negots, stop chasing airplanes, and start chasing salary. Just a thought.

I can see this topic is about to sprial out of control! Talk about stirring the pot. YOU JUST DID IT! sport... I am of the opinion that if you go back in time far enough you will see that both sides have had their role to play in the race to the bottom. As it stands now, if you are at Mainline, you enjoy a higher standard of pay (of course this does not apply to the pay group) however the trade off is work rules that well, I can only say SUCK!

At Jazz, the work rules are quite frankly, perhaps the best in the industry in this country. The pay of course is another matter all together.

I think it is fair to say that the respective negotiating committee's will have their work cut out for them to preserve the best of what they currently have and improve on the weaknesses of their current collective agreements.

TAWS · Post by **TAWS** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:16 am

Just a thought......

After talking to different people in management, they are under the assumption that everyone (especially new hires in the last 2 years) are leaving to fly bigger metal, and for no other reason.

Now I believe that they are living in a dream world if they believe this is the only reason, perhaps it is easy for them to accept. Most pilots I talk to, love this job and the lifestyle that comes with it. However, the major, and usually only main complaint is the F/O pay, how much it is, and the time it takes to see the top scale.

Now, we have pilots that are coming to Jazz to better their career for no other reason to get on with Westjet. Whether it's right or wrong I am not to decide.

However,

I remember 3 specific questions during the Jazz interview .....What do you know about Jazz?.....Why come to Jazz instead of A/C, Westjet or Cathay?.....Would you go to mainline? There was also the first question of all which was conducted on the phone interview before the main interview...Are you aware of the starting pay?...and are you OK with it?

I suggest anyone thinking of coming to Jazz should sit down with their coffee, and consider in deep thought, your real answers to these questions...and not just your interview answers.

One last thing...

For those of you that leave for greener pastures after 6 months....When you give management your 3 days notice or less in some cases, could you please tell them the real reason why you are leaving? It seems to be easy to lie in your interview of why you want to come here. It should equally be as easy to tell the truth of why you want to leave. Please don't use the usual excuses...(My wife can't find a job....gotta do what's best for the family.....I want to fly big metal.... Airlines are not for me...It's just not what I thought it was) Some of these may be true, but if they're not, than be a man, or woman, and tell them the truth of why your leaving. If it's money than tell them.

Maybe you could help be part of solution here at Jazz instead of an ongoing problem.

Good luck to everyone with their careers, whatever path you take. Like any job, Jazz isn't for everyone, try to figure that out the best you can before you apply.

Jmad....time for a new job man....and when you quit, reference this site to management...It should cover your resignation letter quite nicely!

sportingrifle · Post by **sportingrifle** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:49 am

Prop2jet...nice post. I really am not trying hit the self destruct button and turn this thread into into a bar brawl, just pointing something out that might give some a moment to pause and consider. Yes, historically both sides of this issue can share some blame for the race to the bottom as well as the lack of a long term resoloution to the issie itself.

On a positive note, for the first time, all 3 parties (ALPA, ACPA, AC) have a legally binding contract as to who flies what. (Up until now, AC would always try to make a backroom deal with one, at the expense of the other.) This deal, (better known as the Teplitsky Arbitration) should provide scope stability and hopefully allow both sides to pursue wages, pensions, etc. during the negots. If AC tries to cut a side deal with either ALPA or ACPA regarding scope, hopefully they will get told in no uncertain terms that we are not interested in fighting that issue at this time.

"My loyalty and dedication to a corporation is exceeded only by theirs to me!" WC

"A corporation is merely a pile of money, that some people in the way of shareholders, have pledged their allegiance to." SL

squawk 7600 · Post by **squawk 7600** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:15 am

Hey guys, what are the starting wages at jazz and how does it progress?

Are these comparative to a company like CMA, Georgian, Bearskin? If wages are that bad at Jazz, is Jazz getting many CMA or Georgian guys, or do they just hold out for AC or WestJet? I'm of the understanding that WestJet requires 705 time...CARS 705 that is...so do you have to go to Jazz in order to be better qualified for WEstJet? Or is WestJet taking pilots directly from these Tier 3 operators like CMA and Georgian?

From what I've read in this forum, it appears AC is not taking anymore Jazz pilots, so where are they hiring from now? IF there is such a pilot shortage in the industry world wide...will AC eventually have to take Jazz pilots?

Just a few questions, hopefully someone has some answers

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:52 am

Starting pay at Jazz is currently 35.8ish and going up to 36.3ish on Jul 1. This is a flat salary based on 85 credit hours. It goes up in second year of service, such that someone starting today will see 42.4ish in their second year. WDO's (overtime) is based on the annual salary/12/85. Training is either in the block or outside the block depending on the month. If outside the block, then those hours are paid for at the straight time rate.

If you want a better comparison go to airlinepilotcentral.com.

The prevailing theory now is that WJ likes to hire from Jazz, probably because in part they are getting people with a structured training background (sim) and operations. And probably in part because it is in effect "sticking" it to their competitor who in the end has to spend more money on training costs.

Mainline hiring is slowing down and there is a backlog of about 70 or so pilots from Jazz waiting to cross over.

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:03 am

I am sorry boys and girls........ I digging deep trying to find sympathy but to no avail!! You all KNEW WHAT YOU WERE IN FOR WHEN YOU ACCEPTED THE POSITION!! Oh.......I am sorry you did not know what you signed up for? BS!

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:46 am

Everyone knows the wages for an FO at Jazz to start suck. They dont get much better for a long time. At 5 years it isn't bad compared to the non-aviation world. As a capt., your pay scale can break 100G. Statistically that puts you above 95% of the working population. (IE when you stand in line at Timmy's/Starbucks with 19 people in front of you coffee, you are probably the highest paid person in the line.) Throw in awesome working rules, lots of time off (relative the working stiff), travel benefits, good perdiem,and a good pension. Overall you will find it tough to beat compared to the rest of the working world.

Against airlines with larger a/c, not so much. But 2009 will hopefully will fix some of that.

PS Regional competion in the US and their gross wages really make it a tough sell

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:00 am

I think a lot of us knew the starting wages but I wasn't aware how long it takes to make a decent salary at Jazz. You basically have to get upgraded before making some decent cash, and you know how long that's gonna take.

Mustard · Post by **Mustard** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:19 am

So quit.

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:35 am

YOU quit!

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:42 am

For those of you that leave for greener pastures after 6 months....When you give management your 3 days notice or less in some cases, could you please tell them the real reason why you are leaving? It seems to be easy to lie in your interview of why you want to come here. It should equally be as easy to tell the truth of why you want to leave. Please don't use the usual excuses...(My wife can't find a job....gotta do what's best for the family.....I want to fly big metal.... Airlines are not for me...It's just not what I thought it was) Some of these may be true, but if they're not, than be a man, or woman, and tell them the truth of why your leaving. If it's money than tell them

3 days notice?? A little unprofessional...

As for the rest: Hear, Hear!!

Mustard · Post by **Mustard** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:31 am

YOU quit!

I don't work there. Why would I quit?

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:42 am

If you were hired in 2006 you would start at just over 35k. By your 3rd year you will be making around the 50k mark (a raise of almost 40% in 3 yrs) which I don't think is too bad as an F/O on a 50 seat airplane. Its pretty hard to compare Jazz to any other airline in Canada for wages. A/C, Westjet, Transat, Sky Service etc etc all fly much bigger aircraft (and as such should pay more) while the few companies that do have D-8's RJ's etc only have a few of them with a much smaller infastructure. Yes the starting pay could be higher but combine it with some of the best working conditions in the country and it makes for a pretty good place to be.

jazzpilot · Post by **jazzpilot** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:49 am

BC,
Well I think that a $20 per hour increase is a nice start. straight across the board, starting year 4. I think that after year 4 you are possibly likely to stay, and this gives the f/o's what I think is a livable wage and something to stay for to make this company their career. Because everything else is really great.

My thoughts, maybe the rest of you have better ideas. And I realize that nothing will happen until neg start.

jazzpilot · Post by **jazzpilot** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:53 am

I think that we run the same number of people a day aprox as the other guys. If not pretty close.

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:12 pm

My first year at my current employer I earned the princely sum of $14K. In the following 5 years as an FO I never earned more than 36K. In my first year as a Capt I earned less than 50K. Fast forward to present day - in the last 4 years my total earnings are just shy of $500K.

Moral of the story - tenure and time eventually reward patience. Those that leave simply abandon their opportunity and confer it on their replacements.

Pick somewhere you can afford to work and stay there. It may not be Jazz, WJ, or even AC but the rewards typically must be earned.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:09 pm

jazzpilot wrote:BC,
Well I think that a $20 per hour increase is a nice start. straight across the board, starting year 4. I think that after year 4 you are possibly likely to stay, and this gives the f/o's what I think is a livable wage and something to stay for to make this company their career. Because everything else is really great.

My thoughts, maybe the rest of you have better ideas. And I realize that nothing will happen until neg start.

Wow I guess its go big or go home!!

I would love to get a raise like that (equates to almost a $20,000/yr raise for everyone) but I'm not holding my breath!! From what I've heard guys seem to be on the right track though. A increase in hourly rates and a change in how our credits are decided. (eg 1-1/2 to 1 rather than the current 2-1 etc etc.)

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:51 pm

when in 2009 is the contract due? and when would it take effect, any idea? thanks.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:56 pm

I see jmad changed his name to a number and the topic name, did jmad get band or realize that he is just that a NUMBER for the rest of his career and is now happy like the rest of us.

genetic jack hammer · Post by **genetic jack hammer** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:07 pm

HI jmad!