Help me decide!!

[WingsWest]

OK...

I have a dilemma I need help with. I just got recalled back to United Airlines on the A320 this summer. However living in B.C. commuting to Colorado SUCKS!. I'm never home and have NO desire to move to Denver (or Chicago, Los Angeles, etc.).

I have an interview with Jazz and am trying to decide what to do. If I'm successful at Jazz I'll be taking a huge paycut ($75,000USD to $35,000CAD). I won't be losing much seniority (I'm 200 from the bottom at UAL) and I'll be based at home and doing the kind of flying I enjoy. Plus at UAL I only get 11 days off per month. Mainline AC and WestJet have not replied to my applications yet.

So....What should I do??? Take the pay and sacrifice my quality of life. Or take the quality of life and eat the pay cut. Any current Jazz pilots have an opinion??

[swervin]

Stay with United. Money IS everything. You can work for Jazz taking home $1800 a month for the first couple of years and go bankrupt in a short period of time.

[Dockjock]

Go to the interview, kick ass, get the job offer, and then decide.

Jazz seems to see decent flow through to AC and WJ, so you could always go there in the hopes that it somehow increases your chances of moving on. Although, that isn't terribly convincing logic to use when deciding something that important- especially considering the AC option is far from certain- and it certainly seems to have backfired for a lot of guys.

Being so low on the seniority list at UA, you've got some great options. Some positives of your situation:

-Right to work in Canada and USA
-A320 endorsement
-Current job at a major legacy carrier
-Soon to be impending offer at another well respected airline

Personally I'd stay put and wait for something a little more juicy than right seat in a DH8. But you have the luxury of current employment at a company that's been really kicked in the balls- on the plus side there's nowhere to go but up! (Unless Delta buys you....sorry)

Good luck

[. .]

I think you unfortunately have to boil this down to a money situation. In the event that the industry goes for another downturn would you be happy at jazz making 50k in 15 years? Would you be happy making 100k a jazz in 20 or 25 years? If that sounds great then maybe you should take the step back for ithe lifestyle. If you can't live off of that, or limit your life in that manner than I would stay at United until you can move to WJ or Air Canada. Another thing to consider at Jazz, is that you might get stuck with a YYZ or YUL base for a bit. So to start you'll be making 1/2 the money and still commuting.

If you don't mind me asking, is it only the commute the makes United look so bleak, or are there other issues?

[WingsWest]

Commuting is lousy, especially to a reserve sched. United has some pretty decent reserve rules but it still is lousy.

Both of my children are well settled in school and in B.C. we have the luxury of family close by. We have no intention of moving to the States which does not make United a long term solution. Plus with my juniority, a fragile economy, $98 oil, and the impending age 65 issue I worry I'll be on the street again. And I don't want to move to Colorado just to move back again.

Thus I've been looking at solutions where I can fly and be based where I live. Family is more important than airplane size.

[wxnut]

I think you just answered your own question bud. If family is more important than airplane size, you're in other words saying your family and quality of life is more important.


Look, you may make all the money in the world and not be happy, it's the people around you who will get you through those tough times and moments of inconsistency.


Im not saying decline the UA offer, but I think you should try as much as you can for jazz... they seem like a fantastic organization to work for. Maybe for the first year or so, get your children to get a part time job as a cashier at safe way or something, you know, make their own pocket money; thus, they can go out shopping without needing to use your 35k salary. This is of course if they're within that teen age frame to work.

I unno man, it seems to me you're leaning towards Jazz when you evaluate the important things in your life ( your family ).

[piggy]

i read somewhere today of a strong possibility of delta and united merging to reduced costs through economies of scale, this could change your outlook ??

[WingsWest]

Clearly the industry (at least in the States) needs consolidation. IF (and its a big if) United and Delta get together in the long run it will be very beneficial. In the short term any merger will bring all kinds of instability and chaos. Just look at USAirways and Am. West.

[untucked]

I think if you've determined that Canada is it for you and your family, and you think scheduled airline flying is what you want long term, then AC, Jazz and Westjet are your best bet. So, what happens when Jazz calls first. Well in terms of money, I'm sure you've figured out by now that Jazz is clearly the Bronze medal. Alot is made about the first two years pay, but the first two years at Air Canada is almost exactly the same. Its the long term outlook that's the real stinger at Jazz. 10 year FO makes about 60k, ouch! However, if staying in Vancouver is a high priority then Jazz might very well be a good option. Even if you don't get the base from day one, it really won't take very long. The reason why it won't take very long is because many of the Jazz FO's out west are waiting for their shot at going to Westjet (myself included of course). You may very well end up in that same boat. Does it strike anyone else as odd that Jazz HR sees a guy with this experience stiking around in today's market? I had 3 ex-Canjet pilots in my ground school and all of them were gone within a couple of months (extra stamp on the license compliments of the AC family I guess). Another thing to consider is that going to Jazz seems to prevent or a least delay the opportunity to go to AC mainline. Will this continue, or will this change once ACE ceases to exist. Probably not but the rules of the game seem to be very maluable when it suits the big red corporation. Anyways, I feel your pain man, these decisions are not easily made, best of luck.

[Phlyer]

Recently I had to make a tough choice. After I sat down with my family and we made a pro/con list for each scenario, then the choice became obvious.
My advice would be to do the same and then you will find your answer.
Best of luck.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Have you considered knocking on some corporate doors in CYVR? Wont have the firm airline style schedule, but in this day and age you might be surprised to find what a potential employer would be willing to settle for. You'd probably be looking at a starting wage between 60-80k for a corporate Captain position. Not that I have seen any ads the last couple of weeks, but there have been corporate outfits in CYVR looking for drivers over the last few months.

[rudder]

Thus I've been looking at solutions where I can fly and be based where I live. Family is more important than airplane size.

First of all congratulations for having your priorities straight - family always comes first.

While getting hired at Jazz will be an impediment to progressing to AC, the flowthrough agreement with WJA from Jazz is working well

Consider seriously the bird-in-the-hand (Jazz) and keep waiting for WJA to call. You sound like you will be a good fit wherever you work.

Best of luck!

[TG]

WingsWest,

Here some realities.
If your wife is working and making a decent salary, go with Jazz.
If you are the only one providing $$$, better stay were you are and wait for AC or Westjet to give you a call.

I'm not in your shoes but that's what I would do.

[young grasshopper]

If I'm successful at Jazz I'll be taking a huge paycut ($75,000USD to $35,000CAD).

With the exchange rate, isn't that about even? lol

Family is more important than airplane size

Sounds like you just made up your mind. Thats a really tough decision...good luck with whatever you decide - worst case scenario you'll still have a pension which is nice! Good luck!

[Hyster]

You say money isnt everything when you make it, I just got my first GST rebate since my dockhand days. I'm on year two pay, cant wait for the big raise.....

Congratulations on being noble and saying size and money doesnt matter, family first. When your wife isnt looking over your shoulder you can tell us how you really feel.

[neophyte]

I would say stay with United. If you live in YVR, won't you be commuting regardless of where you work (AC, WJ, Jazz)? Granted WJ does have a port system, it is made clear that YYC is your BASE.

If you can hang on I think your long term happiness will come with United. Then again, take everyone's comments, chew them over and make the decision that works best for you and yours.

Regards,

Neo

[Flaps 1 Billion]

check your pm's west

[flyinhigh]

Congratulations on being noble and saying size and money doesnt matter, family first. When your wife isnt looking over your shoulder you can tell us how you really feel.

Congrats on the most assiniene remark on this post, I take it your not married.

Once you have a wife and kids, Work is just that WORK. It does not matter what your flying, you just rather be with your FAMILY more and more.

[mduffy]

WingsWest,

The US aviation industry will eventually recover in the way ours already has (even if after a couple mergers). When that happens, would you rather be at the front of thier recovery, or the tail end of ours?

What about taxes? Might you one day want to work for a US carrier, and even live in the US, if you were in a higher tax bracket in Canada? 46% isn't fun. Tax freedom dates in late June?

Keep in mind - it's not how much money you make - it's how much you make AFTER you pay basic expenses, that affects your quality of life. If you look only at money beyond costs, $75K is many times more money than $35K - not just twice as much.

What are you chances of getting to AC from Jazz compared to getting in via United? Would be be safer to stay on the UA seniority list while you try to get onto AC's?

I don't envy you. It's almost as hard to have too many jobs as it is to have none!

[Localizer]

Who says money is everything?!!?!?! ....

What good is money if you're not happy? The truth is money doesn't buy happiness. So do what you think is right for you ... Whoever gets into aviation with the soul intentions of making huge money, is an idiot.

Cheers,

Loc

[chief]

Man you are in a tough predicament. Back in the day i WISH i was in your shoes with those options now I feel for ya. Weird how that works huh? Anyways, I always hate giving advice to friends and thinking in the back of my mind that if something didnt pan out I might be to blame. So the BEST option is to do what was said already. the pros and cons list. And in that list you have to weigh the importance. Family to you sounds like a big priority. Good for you. Family sure gets you through the rough times. Someone said money IS everything. I shook my head when I saw that. Money comprimises good judgement and morals. Of course.....my opinion. Family IS very important I agree but I always say to myself I can no make anyone happy if I am not happy myself. Negativity breeds to others. If I were your wife I would rather have a very happy you and see you 13 days a month rather than have a very grumpy you and see you 25 days a month. And if that were the case i would probably be wishing i saw you only 13 days a month. You can ask for all the advice on here you want and we will gladly give it to ya BUT in the end its the priorities in YOUR life and the weight you put on them that counts. And not knowing the full details telling you what you should do is wrong of us. I was at Jazz and then made the jump to WJ. Jazz was a good company while i was there. The schedule improved very quickly for me. I was near the beginning of their hiring spree a couple years ago so I moved up the seniority pretty quick and didn't have to hold reserve at all. I commuted to Toronto and didnt care for the commute but it was pretty easy since AC had a high frequency to T.O. from calgary. But I did get those 4 days on, one day off, 4 days on which I didnt care for because that 1 day off wasnt enough to come back home. But i saw less and less of that as my seniority went up. The people were generally very good to work with. I was suprised how I never saw the Air BC vs Canadian regional or Air Nove vs Air Ontario attitude. I thought there might be some of that but it was nice not to see it. BUT it sounds like you will be commuting regardless of where you decide to go. Unless you got a YVR spot if you went to Jazz which is possible. Obviously the only downfall I saw at Jazz really was the pay. It was tought to take. BUT ont he other hand my whole family saw a drastic improvement in my happiness. So do I regret goign to Jazz. Not at all. I would do it again. And like it was mentioned if yoru wife works and has a decent paying job you are laughing. Like I said I am at WJ now and to tell you the truth it is like day one of my flying career again. I look forward to going to work and I look forward to going back when I finish. How many jobs are like that. The people are great to work with. Sure you will find one here and there that has a different personality but the good thing is there is 4 other crew members to associate with as you would well know when at UAL. Flying new aircraft is just another perk too. The money is kinda hard in the beginning but no harder than any other airline to start. But I just started my ESP contribution in August and by the end of december will have about 12K saved up. Not bad in my opinion. The hardest thing to deal with at WJ is hearing some of the captains that are selling their options and getting 50K. lol. And all this "kool aid" crap you hear about is a load of it. At my indoc class the instructors laughed about it rather than feed it to ya. But everyone I talked to before and even now has seemed to find the balance in their life coming to WJ and thats what I think its all about. But for you just weigh the differences and make the scale balance for you. I know I didnt offer much advice on what decision you should go with but I am sure you will in the end. If you have any q's about Jazz or WJ that I can help you with just pm me and good luck!

[JazzJetDriver]

After trying to read the previous post, I now know why paragraphs were invented.

[chief]

After trying to read the previous post, I now know why paragraphs were invented.

lol. sorry Jazz I dont think my enter button works!

[Jaques Strappe]

The keyboard should have an "activate" or "execute" button!

[YVR Dude]

Here's a thought for you..

You wouldn't be having this dilemma unless you already knew what you wanted out of life, and your job..usually, when we have a defined path, its an easy decision, and although you have a tough one ahead, I think you have already made it and are just looking for confirmation of your decision on this forum...Look back at one of your first posts..you made a comment about family and not the size of the aircraft..remember:"the biggest airplane is not necessarily the best airplane.."

Think about it! You already know what you want..good luck!