A speeding ticket leads to a royal tazing...

[MUSKEG]

Why Cat is it always WE will do this to you. We will do that to you. By all means I think you might be a salty character but face it, at your age (which I will add some of us are closer to than others), you bark a lot worse than you bite. No I don't think YOU would shove anything up anyones arse. If you hate Canada so much Cat then please just leave and don't come back. Go where you can be your own man, where rules don't apply to you, and where people havn't heard your yarns before. Even my ball game is way better now than when I actually played. If a peace officer tells you to stop, You stop. I think that also holds true in the tough Countries you have worked NO. You want to be an asshole and spit in the face of authority, fill your boots but there will and need to be consiquences. Oh ya and I agree that at best the Vancouver incident was Second Degree.

[g5]

245 cases of death by taser in 6 years, according to wikipedia.

I don't think this guy deserved the risk to his life, not to mention the way he fell onto the road further endangering his life.

But whaddya gonna do, call the cops?

[flyinphil]

My point in another thread exactly g5. The approach needs to be changed from "a means of compliance" to "where lethal force is required".

[Cat Driver]

Whats your problem Muskeg?

If you hate Canada so much Cat then please just leave and don't come back. Go where you can be your own man, where rules don't apply to you,

Who are you to suggest that I leave Canada just because I have issues with those who abuse the power of their office?

And where do you get the idea that rules don't apply to me?

Seems you support my position unless the following was written by someone else.

I saw the tape yesterday and I am embarassed to have to tell people the RCMP are our national police force. (note the word force). That was the most unprofessional job ever. They were told he only knew Russian and it does not matter what his actions were prior to the tazzering. That's like me saying you were an asshole yesterday so i'll punch you today. What a bunch of baffons. They need to be charged with murder. Period. Are they going to say now that in a multicultural place like VR they couldn't find anybody that spoke his language. Give the man some food and water and treat him like a person and see what happens. 24 freakin seconds and he had his hands up and was not a threat to anyone except for 4 guys with guns. I'm embarrased to say I was an auxillary member.

[BTD]

We're a generation of pussies, without the knowledge of what reality is.

I don't want to get into the debate about the Tazer side of things. But I agree with the above statement. Too few people accept the consequences of their actions. Everybody is laying their "unit" out on the table to see whose is bigger.

[MUSKEG]

CAT The easy difference between the two incidents is that this one has no language barrier. I haven't changed my stance at all. I just stated that if you act like a jerk you should be treated likewise. Jerks understand that language loud and clear. I operate a business that sees it's fair share of jerks. I ask them politely ONCE to either stop or go where I don't have to watch them and then the talking stops. My Canada comment comes from the fact that it appears nothing there is good enough for you. Law Enforcement, Government, T/C, and the list goes on. It appears you are just mad at life. Are there flaws, absolutely, but some sincere people work there also. It's to easy to complain about the negative.

[Cat Driver]

My Canada comment comes from the fact that it appears nothing there is good enough for you. Law Enforcement, Government, T/C, and the list goes on. It appears you are just mad at life. Are there flaws, absolutely, but some sincere people work there also. It's to easy to complain about the negative.

This is an aviation forum Muskeg.

I am not mad at life.

Tell me Muskeg do you think that everything is A.O.K. just because there some sincere people working at TC?

The way TC is operated might be acceptable to you and that is just great.....for you.

Some of us just expect that if nothing else TCCA would respect the same thing we are supposed to respect...rule of law.

Under Preuss and his cronies they have lost sight of this basic concept and in my opinion should be kicked out of office.

However if you like the way they run the industry then you and I are worlds apart.

It's to easy to complain about the negative.

Not really, but it is easy to just bend over and submit..

[MUSKEG]

Cat. You have just validated most of what I said.

[Cat Driver]

Just one more comment:

When I found TC to be in violation of the rules I did something about it.

Even knowing that it would ruin my business I still did something about it.

I now have the satisfaction of being able to name names in TCCA of people who are a disgrace not only to TCCA but to Canada for whom they are supposed to be working. And I have done so with enough conviction of my beliefs that I use my own name in these forums.

If that makes me mad at life then maybe aviation needs more of us mad enough to stand up and demand a just over site of aviation by those in office.

[mellow_pilot]

Cat, I'm going to start this by saying that I in no way mean to attack you, just point out a few things.

You say that you are upset with TC for not following the law, but you have mentioned several times that you are prepared to break the law and physically assault those who enforce it. I see a conflict in these statements. If the people who you call criminals at TC were to be arrested, you would need cops to do it, it won't help you if they've all got fish up their asses cause you think it's funny.

There are a lot of posters here who seem to think that they have the right to disobey a police officer if you don't agree with them. If that were true then no one could ever be arrested for anything.

Everyone complains about how the young people today have an attitude of entitlement. Do you really think you're personally entitled to argue with a police officer outside of a court room.

[Widow]

Power is abused too often. Those in a position of power need to be held accountable when they abuse that power, whether it be the RCMP, TCCA or the (ex) Prime Minister of Canada.

The problem is ... how to make them accountable. If the only ones checking up on the "powers that be" are the "powers that be" themselves, then we will never know the truth and will be blindsided turn after turn.

While I certainly don't advocate being aggressive or even non-compliant, the "average joe" does not have the financial resources to do battle to a "fair" conclusion when facing the obstacles associated with abuse of power, the "hiding" of information and the transition through the various levels of recourse.

Perhaps those in positions of power need to be (better) evaluated for compassion and (better) trained in how not to abuse said powers.

The young people of today have the unprecedented opportunity to self-educate through the impetus of the world wide web. I believe (always the optimist) that “sheeple” are waking up – not just in Canada, but around the world. We are beginning to examine those in power more closely, we are making our voices heard.

If those who abuse power are seen to be held accountable, the level of trust for those in power should concurrently increase.

[flyinphil]

Very well written Widow.

[the_professor]

Can we split this thread?

This is about the outrageous actions of the RCMP in Vancouver, which is a symptom of dozens of incidents in recent years, not about Cat's long-standing position on TC.

Let's not diminish the bullshit being put forth by the RCMP by rehashing something else in the same thread.

[Widow]

Actually, the incident in the initiating post was in Utah, and not about the RCMP. While Cat's (shared) position regarding Transport Canada may not relate directly to tasering, it does go to the accountability of those in power.

[g5]

ahhh, we lost the plot again!

[the_professor]

Actually, the incident in the initiating post was in Utah, and not about the RCMP. While Cat's (shared) position regarding Transport Canada may not relate directly to tasering, it does go to the accountability of those in power.

This is about the accountability of the RCMP, a federal agency that has virtually no checks on its power, and that has the ability to affect each and every one of our lives in a far deeper way than something absolutely microscopic by comparison, i.e. how TC enforces the regs for air taxi operators.

[Walker]

http://vlex.com/vid/20035718 A Very interesting US take, albeit a rather dated one...
I am unfortunately having trouble finding the end of the story.... anyone on here familiar with it?

The basic break down if people on here are unwilling to read through the old English legalese:
A First Nations guy: John Bad Elk, was outside walking around enjoying the day. He decided for fun he would fire off a couple rounds into the air. A passing officer went up to him asked what he was doing, John replied Im walking around and I shot off some rounds for the hell of it (or rather something that that effect.) The officer said well why don't you come by the office later and we can talk about it (the office was some odd 20 miles away and this WAS 1899.) John probably said to him self "ya sure thing buddy ill get right on that." A few days later the officer was sad his friend John hadn't come to see him so he sent some of his subordinates to go get John. The went off found John told him to go with them, John said wheres your warrant, they didn't have one so John said well then im going to my brothers house for a bit ill go to the office tomorrow morning. They followed him around and we "think" at some point they decided to use force to bring him however these details get a little fuzzy. Somehow one of the officers ended up with a round through the skull and John finished having dinner with his Bro. The court in North Dakota sentenced him to hang, HOWEVER this was repealed to the US supreme court which found: although under the regular actions of their office a cop can use whatever reasonable force is necessary to bring someone in, if they do not have a warrant or just cause then their actions are essentially illegal. And Dependant on a number of factors the conviction of murder in this specific case is in error and should more likely be either manslaughter or rather nothing at all situationally dependent. So the old judgment was reversed and a new trial was to be called (which is where the story ends cause i cant seem to dig up anything after the fact...)

but basically what can be gotten out of this is that at least in the US with this specific judgment (remembering case law in Canada and the US are vastly different) that there is some justification in using force for self defense against an illegal action by an officer...

Are their any test cases of justified self defense against an illegal officer in Canada?


EDIT:
WOW Me thinks im moving to Texas!


Section of Texas Penal Code:

9.31 (C) The use of force to resist arrest or search is justified:

(1) If, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[Driving Rain]

After working 26 years for a Provincal Gumitup, I've come to the conclussion that all branches of government are black holes that draw in OFFICIOUS PRICKS.
I know many police, conservation officers and firefighters. Many, in fact most are desent hardworking people worthy of everyones respect. Unfortunately more than a few fall into the OFFICIOUS PRICK catagory.
The biggest bully in my public school is now a police chief of a mid size Ontario city. Why am I not surprized?

[Doc]

Well he ain't here. A ten year old girl could kick the crap out of our Police Chief! And besides, he's into motorcycles!

Did I mention...He's a good guy?

[Driving Rain]

Well he ain't here. A ten year old girl could kick the crap out of our Police Chief! And besides, he's into motorcycles!

Doc our police chief is a great guy unfortunately he inherited a police force that was more Keystone cops. I can't think of a guy better suited to lead local law enforcement and police service out of the dark ages than him.
Oh ya he's also a pretty good sky diver.

[Widow]

How should we react to the unruly?
ANDRE PICARD

From Thursday's Globe and Mail
November 22, 2007 at 9:06 AM EST

There was a time when the mentally ill were placed in horrific mental institutions and, if they could not be controlled, they were electroshocked into drooling submission.

Today, we have shut down the asylums, releasing the mentally ill onto the streets without support and, when they act bizarrely, police are dispatched to subdue them with 50,000 volts from a taser.

This is progress?

The case of Robert Dziekanski, the 40-year-old Polish immigrant who died after an encounter with RCMP officers at the Vancouver International Airport in the early morning hours of Oct. 14, has attracted a lot of media attention.

But let's face it: These incidents occur every day and, invariably, they involve the mentally ill - people who are experiencing psychosis for all manner of reasons, such as stress, sleep deprivation, nicotine withdrawal, side effects of drugs (legal and illegal) or underlying chemical imbalances.

The minute details of Mr. Dziekanski's case will be examined in a public inquiry and we still don't know all the details. But, at this point, we can all agree that he was acting a bit weird.

In other words, he was behaving like thousands upon thousands of people do every day. Screaming, pacing, ranting, muttering, uttering threats are anti-social acts that many of us witness daily.

They are the severely mentally ill and the intravenous drug users who have become part of the urban landscape. They are rarely violent, but often off-putting with antics that can include public urination, persistent begging or loud declarations that they are the Messiah.

The perfectly sane (if such a condition exists) can also blow a gasket when stuck in traffic, frustrated in an interminable Air Canada check-in line or after one too many drinks.

The question that needs to be asked - and answered - in society is: How do we respond? And how should we respond?

This is a major public-health challenge, not merely an issue of law and order. Yet, the reflex we have developed, when somebody acts strange, is to call police.

People suffering from mental illness - be it depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or temporary psychosis - almost always come out losers in this equation.

In dealing with anti-social behaviours, police have an unenviable task. How do you distinguish the vexed from the violent? The harmless from the hysterical? The criminal from the kook? The one who is a danger to others from the one who is a danger only to himself?

When police intervene and the person ignores orders, or fails to comprehend them, and gets more agitated, banal situations can quickly escalate into confrontation and tragedy.

The batons come out; so does the pepper spray, the taser and sometimes even the service revolver.

The unco-operative, irrational and unruly are assumed to be violent. In reality, people with mental illness tend to harm themselves, not others.

Instead of reaching for the taser, police should, in their jargon, try to "de-escalate" situations with words rather than brute force. Talk. Wait. Talk some more.

But we live in a world in a hurry. A post 9/11 world where law enforcement is the new religion, and everyone is a potential threat.

There is no need to wait. To negotiate. To understand. When police had only guns, they tended to keep them in the holster when dealing with the mentally ill, though there were tragic deaths then, too.

Tasers are considered a more humane alternative because they are not lethal weapons. Some mental-health groups have even endorsed their use.

In the real world, tasers have proved to be a failed technological fix, a horrible step backward in community policing.

The challenge of mental illness cannot simply be zapped away.

Still, it is a mistake to issue a blanket condemnation of police. They are merely using the tools at their disposal: the Criminal Code, the power, the weapons.

The troubling video footage of Mr. Dziekanski being shocked by a taser have forced us to begin discussing these issues.

Yet, let's not forget that confrontations with the disorderly and unruly in public places are but the tip of the iceberg.

Once arrested, people with mental illness often end up in jail where they quickly spiral downward: being loud and belligerent, refusing orders, committing anti-social acts and self-mutilation make them disciplinary problems.

One in eight prisoners in federal institutions has a severe, diagnosed mental illness, making our prisons de facto asylums of old. Behind bars, the mentally ill are particularly vulnerable to exploitation, beginning with sexual abuse.

When these "criminals" are released, without counselling or assistance, they are virtually doomed to reoffend, creating a vicious cycle.

It is time for us to break that cycle, to invest in care and support for the mentally ill in the community instead of investing in weaponry.

A just, democratic society has rules of law. But it also affords rights to its citizens - all of its citizens.

Compassion and community care is a lot more difficult and expensive to dole out than 50,000-volt jolts of electricity.

But people who suffer from mental illness are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect, even when they are acting "crazy."

globeandmail

[JakeYYZ]

Replay the video. What caught my attention was that Massey turned and put his right hand in his pocket, while walking away. Bad things can live in right pockets (the majority of people are right handed). People take their hands ,_out_ of their pockets when walking toward their vehicle.
Let’s remove the taser. Massey is not complying with verbal commands. He refuses to sign the ticket (is that actual law in Utah ?). He turns around, places his hand in his pocket. Now freeze the situation. Does the officer approach him, pulling his hand out of his pocket, or does he pull out his sidearm, hoping that Massey will look back and begin to comply… once he sees that he's a few pounds of trigger pull away from a larger problem?
I’m with the officer on this one. If it were me, I would have not ignored the implicit visual warning when the officer pulled out the taser and pointed it at me. It was clear that the officer was serious and Massey had several seconds in which to comply.

[Widow]

From previously quoted article:

When a driver signs the traffic ticket, it' is not an admission of guilt but merely their legal acknowledgment that they promise to show up to court or to pay the ticket, Roden said.
In the event that a motorist refuses to sign a trooper has two options, Roden said. One is to write "refuses to sign" on the citation, which is then given to the driver. The second is to arrest the driver.

It would seem that the officer could have simply written "refuses to sign" on the citation ... which, IMHO would have been the preferable option. The cop had already been back to his vehicle with the guys license and registration to fill out the ticket ... and presumably checked that there were no outstanding warrants.

[JakeYYZ]

Apparently you are required to sign the ticket.

If you are cited, try to remain calm and listen to what the trooper is telling you. Remember that by signing the citation you ARE NOT admitting guilt, it is just a promise to contact the court. If you don't sign, state law does give the trooper the authority to place you under arrest and transport you to jail or to the court to post bail.

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations.html

Non-compliance to verbal commands deserves the “one-up” policy, it was either physically put your hands on the guy or tase him.