Another possible public relations problem for the RCMP?

[Bookem Lou]

A symptom of living in the north means I'm on dial up internet.

[Cat Driver]

Driving Rain:

You and I are missing the point here.

In Canada it would seem that you are a threat to the police unless you sit in your car with your hands clearly visible on the steering wheel, if you get out of your car and get tasered by a cop you fuc.in deserved it.

Does it remind you of the word Gestapo?

[Driving Rain]

Cat, You want to know the real reason the cops want you to remain in your car?
People sitting in a car represent a greater danger to an officer because there could be weapons hiddin it. Police use this pretext to search a vehical. They have every right to be safe. I think we can all agree with that.
If you are no longer in the car and the car is locked that danger is gone. Police often shout for you to remain in your car. They make it sound like an order... why? They want to search your car.
If the vehical is locked the danger of a hidden weapon in it is gone for that moment. If they decide to search anyway in all likelyhood the evidence would be thrown out because without a warrant it is now an illegal search.
I've been stopped a couple of times because I was driving the exact speed limit. Apparantly drug smugglers use this ploy thinking the cops won't stop them. In fact it peeks their interest.

[Hot Fuel]

My ex-wife would argue with you about your search theory (come to think of it she would argue about anything) She would tell you they order you to remain in the vehicle so they can slow the situation down, control who's doing what and give them a mobility advantage should weapons come into play. The goal is to control what is occurring during the stop...in general terms people that don't want to comply with simple commands like "stay in your vehicle" have something to hide or are attempting to control the situation. Both become red flags and heighten the officers need to control. Pretty simple stuff...strap on their boots for a couple of days.

[Walker]

Well staying in the car is no issue, (in my mind.) if they ask you to get out, roll the window the rest of the way up (you should only have had it open a crack to begin with) get out and lock the car. If they ask you to search it the answer is a polite “no.” Or conversely get out right after being pulled over (peaceably) right after you hit the broadcast button sending offsite feeds from the 12 hidden cameras and mic’s spread about the vehicle. Then when they taser you file a charge against them, it gets tossed then bring the video footage with the news media and 2000 people to the crown prosecutor and demand (s)he spend the next 5 years in the slammer.

[Driving Rain]

My ex-wife would argue with you about your search theory (come to think of it she would argue about anything) She would tell you they order you to remain in the vehicle so they can slow the situation down, control who's doing what and give them a mobility advantage should weapons come into play. The goal is to control what is occurring during the stop...in general terms people that don't want to comply with simple commands like "stay in your vehicle" have something to hide or are attempting to control the situation. Both become red flags and heighten the officers need to control. Pretty simple stuff...strap on their boots for a couple of days.

True, cops are all about control. The fact that your in your vehical may make them safer but they use that as a pretext to conduct a search of your car.
It's really quite simple, exit your vehical, produce your documents, keep your hands in plain site and don't act provacative. Once your under arrest and in their control it would be wise to obey them. Until you've been arrested it's not against the law to NOT be in a vehical on the side of a public roadway. No matter what they say. The cops know that better than anybody.

[Bookem Lou]

The comment about control is exactly right. If you are outside your vehicle, you are in a better position than they are if you decide to fight, shoot whatever with possibly an unseen weapon. You might say "how am I, a 70 year old guy going to fight" or "I'd never do something like that. I'm a nice guy". Well you likely wouldn't do something like that and you (probably) are a nice guy. But they don't know that. And with the 2 shooting incidents up north, that scenario is likely weighing heavily on their minds.

FWIW, I've been pulled quite a few times for few different things. I've always just chilled out in my car and never once been searched. Not that I was hiding anything in the first place. Treat them with respect and you'll likely get it back in spades.

Cheers

[BoostedNihilist]

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[snowshoe]

Doc--another interesting topic. If we looked at just the tazer and death incident at the a/p in B C, would be very easy to brush this off as an isolated though tragic affair. But when I look at some of the other deadly events that have happened to and around the RCMP in last few years I begin to think that maybe a wheel or two might have come off the car. There has been quite a turn over of people in the force over the last very few years and the force , along with other police departments in Canada have serious staff shortages. I wonder if maybe the training protocols have been changed and corners are being cut, put new officers out before they're ready. Just look at the shooting deaths of RCMP officers the last 2-3 years. Most if not all were young and therefore fairly inexperienced. The last shooting death up north sure makes me think something has gone haywire in the training sequence and maybe some of them are not properly prepared for the job.

[Bookem Lou]

[quote="BoostedNihilist"]
The addage if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen comes to mind. If you join the RCMP and don't know you will have to walk up on a lot of cars, and the danger that might entail, you probably shouldn't have passed the entrance examination. quote]

You have got to be kidding me. This has to be the dumbest thing I've read. If it was me, and I was approaching a car, I might not have a gun/tazer out but I'd sure be thinking of all the things that could go wrong, especially in an area like Surrey. It sounds to me like you think the police should just be walking up on cars fat dumb and happy expecting the best case scenario to happen. In my mind, it is exactly like taking off. You expect the worst to happen and you prepare accordingly. If the takeoff is successful, as the vast majority are, great. If not, you aren't and shouldn't be surprised because you expected it and had it planned out.

Bottom line is, there are a lot of people armchair quarterbacking here who were not at any of the incidents. We as pilots demand fairness and time to fully analyze an accident. We shout and cry foul when people jump to conclusions based on what they've read or seen on television. Yet, at the same time we are judging the RCMP on any number of incidents when we are reading or watching the same highly inaccurate media. Asking for fairness and time for answers isn't asking a lot. It's what any of you would ask for if you were being judged. Sure, it's the RCMP. They are a public protection force (thats for you Cat) and need to be scrutinized. You know what though? They are human like the rest of us and every one of us makes mistakes.

I'm hungry so I'm off to eat a bowl of cereal or something. I look forward to reading my picked apart post later on.

[Bookem Lou]

P.S. Boosted, the incarcerated criminals shouldn't be driving. If they are, there's a problem at the prison. Its the unincarcerated ones I'd be worried about.

Snowshoe. The last shooting in Nunavut, it wouldn't have mattered if it had been a 30 year veteran. The guy was waiting in the darkness with his rifle and the officer never even made it out of his car. Not what anyone would expect for an impaired call.

[GilletteNorth]

I've known quite a few cops in my life (no, not from being arrested LOL). Most of them are good men. Most of them looked tough, like they could handle themselves quite well. As far as I know RCMP are taught self defence in the RCMP training course they take when they start out and probably attend a few refreshers. They probably know more about close in fighting/wrestling/crowd control and are usually in better shape than your average joe. So why would a cop be afraid of a 68 yr old man getting out of his car to the point that the cop decided he needed to taser the old fart? Something sounds wrong here.

[BoostedNihilist]

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[Cat Driver]

The Chilliwack guy died last night.

It probably was not due to the taser though seems this one was clubbed to death.

I hope I never get mentally deranged or drugged up in B.C. and end up dead.

[Wilbur]

The cops can not search your car without cause, and sitting in your car after a traffic stop is not cause. They can search with your consent, but you don't have to give it.

This guy didn't get tased because he was double parked. He got tased because drove away when they tried dealing with the double parking issue. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that driving away from a police stop is not going work in your favour. This old guy eventually recognized this, or his wife was yelling at him to pull over and stop.

Notwithstanding his driving off from the traffic stop, I'm hard pressed to imagine why the cop tasered him, however, I have seen plenty of violent old people over the years. There are a few things I would want to know before passing judgement. Is this guy known to police, does he have a record? What was he sounding and acting like as he got out of his car? Was the cop a 200 pound man, or a 110 pound female?

Has anyone noticed the pattern in all these taser incidents? They all start with joe citizen breaking the law, followed by the police reacting to them breaking the law. Maybe it's time for people to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't worry about being tasered by the police because I don't drive away from traffic stops, I don't fight with the cops, I don't vandalize other people's property because I'm upset, etc.

Completely unrelated, but I'm kind of wondering if this guy should even be on the road. Blind in one eye and neurological dysfunction?

[albertdesalvo]

Has anyone noticed the pattern in all these taser incidents? They all start with joe citizen breaking the law, followed by the police reacting to them breaking the law.

Makes no difference. The issue is use of excessive force in dealing with unarmed people. How did the cops deal with these situations before the tazer was invented?

[Wilbur]

Before the taser they used OC spray which is pretty unpleasant stuff. It attacks the mucous membranes in your eyes and nose causing a severe burning sensation, swelling shut of the eyes, severe watering of the eyes, and a severe case of "snotsicles." Uncontrollable coughing also occurs due to irritation of the throat. Depending on the person's individual sensitivity and access to water to rinse their eyes, the effects last from about 30-60 minutes. Allergic reactions are possible, and anyone with respitory health issues could be severely effected. It also contaminates a wide area, gets into HVAC systems, and impacts many innocent bystanders. Some people are also entirely resistant to the stuff, and those who have experience with it can overcome and fight through the effects. On the upside, if you have a bad head cold it will completely clear your sinuses.

Before OC Spray, the cops used their fists, flashlights, batons, choke holds, and pain compliance holds. Cops back then were also mostly average to bigger than average men and mostly worked two to a car. Governments have very deliberately made the decision that police forces need to represent the community at large, so starting in the 80's women and ethinic minorities (often generally smaller in stature than caucasians) were recruited in large numbers. While I think this was an overall very good move, there is perhaps a consequence to it. No matter how fit and well trained, a couple buck and half women are not going to physically control an angry, violent, 200 pound man. They need tools to do it, and thats were "intermediate" force options like the taser and OC come into play.

The old methods also resulted in a lot of injuries and deaths to both police officers and criminals. Back then, if a cop was on the loosing end of a physical altercation they had one option only; pull their revolver and kill the person. It happened often enough that when options like OC and the taser came on the market, law enforcement agencies jumped on them. Nobody wants to kill someone if it's avoidable.

Are some cops going too quickly to tasers and OC spray rather than spending more time trying to talk their way through a situation? I've got enough experience to know that's happening, just as before those options were available there were cops too quick to use their knuckles.

But I suspect the larger influence is low experience levels. Developing ones skill in using verbal tactics is a slow, life long process, not dissimilar to developing flying skills. Police forces, like many large employers, have a workforce that has a bubble of very experienced people comming up to reitrement, a large group of new, inexperienced people at the other end, with few in between. I predict the public is going to continue seeing frequent use of tasers and OC because the young officers responding to these difficult and volitile situations are simply inexperienced.

In many police forces, it is now common place to have officers with only one or two years experience acting as field trainers for new people. A decade ago, that situation would have been laughably seen as the blind leading the blind. Nowdays there's no choice because that's all there is.

[Driving Rain]

Governments have very deliberately made the decision that police forces need to represent the community at large,

Most places they are called police services nowdays. Though by the way some cops act you'd never know it.

[albertdesalvo]

Wilbur:

That was a very good post and you made some good points.

I can't see a problem with any cop using a taser on an angry violent 200 lb man, because as you say, it's better than killing him.

But that sure isn't the scenario I saw at the Vancouver airport. And the old geezer they zapped?

Excessive force complaints have been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth, it's nothing new. But there is something seriously wrong when they don't even try to resolve a situation peacefully.

They are doing it because they're scared. And that's scary for all of us.