Are you suggesting there are some similarities between sitting in an airliner over the ocean at FL370 and flying in a Beaver or Otter on floats between Vancouver and Vancouver Island?
No, what I'm suggesting is that public perception is very susceptible to very small changes.
Why aren't airliner seats facing backwards? It would increase your chances of surviving a crash much greater than forwards? And don't answer because people get airsick sitting that way. It's because of the flying public.
So I would suggest the same about the pfd's.
Oh and yes I have been on a under water egress course and found it very difficult to do anything in the water fully clothed with shoes on and a life jacket around me.
What if that jacket infaltes in the AC? Not only have you drowned but anyone behind you as well.
Again just my thoughts, not set in stone here by no means. Just hoping to hear a good debate about a serious question.
Crazed windscreen,
The otters have been modified to have a fresh air system complete with ground blowers to try and keep it cool back there. If you want to see hot, check out the -6's in Male when you are #9 for departure.. Thank god for the safety briefing cards, they finally have a good use...
Yes I know about the blower, and they don't work worth a damn. The briefing card works better as you say. We probably know eachother i suspect. I have about 3000 hours on those Otters out of YWH.
When I was instructing the Cadets this summer any time we where over water they where required to wear one, the boss suggested that the instructors do to. Ok it was handing a vest over saying better put this on. At one point I was wondering around the flight school for 3/4 of an hour after a flight and failed to notice I still had it on. They are that comfortable and the engine seemed to make a few less wired noises during a mid strait crossing. You all know the ones? The odd noises you could swear you have never heard before till over the middle of water, especially at night!
Neat little gadget there Widow. I still prefer the Mustang since I would already be wearing it (putting the Rescue Stick on while injured could be difficult). It would be a good idea for passengers.
On another note I think I'll share the story of my employer's reaction to the Mustang.
Last May I returned for a third season at so-and-so's outposts. I was flying camp checks and passengers for roughly two weeks and on every flight I wore my new Mustang PFD. Then all of a sudden my employer confronted me and declared he would no longer allow me to wear the PFD. His reasons were;
-It makes the passengers nervous.
-It signals to the boss that you intend to crash.
-It would hamper your egress from the aircraft.
A heated argument ensued and within a week I was working across the bay for another operator. I finished the season with my new employer and wore my Mustang on every flight. I frequently asked and was asked about my PFD and I soon discovered;
-Passengers ARE NOT nervous about the pilot wearing one. In fact they think rather highly of it.
-It does not make for a carefree pilot, bent on flipping it in the drink.
-After wearing it long enough the PFD "became" a part of my clothing and would not affect my ability to egress the aircraft no more so then my jeans or heavy coat.
-In the event of an accident, the mustang-wearing-pilot has the additional few seconds to help passengers unbuckle and get out since he does not have to look for his own life jacket.
I think the last point is the most important and why more float pilots should be wearing them. To hell what the boss thinks, it is your responsibility to get the passengers out and the Mustang can help.
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Last edited by Mr. North on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I've always found it disturbing that operators AND TCCA site passenger fear as being a reason not to mandate the use of PFDs in all phases of flight ...
I further feel that your safety as an employee is jeopardized by your employers refusal to allow you to wear a PFD, especially as it has been recommended (over and over) by the TSB.
As a reminder ... in the accident which resulted in my husbands death ...
The pilot and all four passengers managed to escape the aircraft ... but not to take the PFDs with them - they were all still strapped inside. Only the passenger (my husband) who wore a floater coat (not recommended, but he DID manage to escape) was ever found - and he was basically uninjured. This would lead one to believe that there was a strong likelihood that NO-ONE on board was seriously injured and yet no-one survived. An excellent reason to wear your PFD in ALL phases of flight. Had all aboard been wearing PFDs when the accident occured, there is no doubt that they would have been rescued - five voices calling for help while floating would have been a lot "louder" (and warmer) than one.
Another note of importance in said accident, is that of underwater egress. I am not sure what training the pilot had received, however I do know that my husband had taken the classroom portion of an egress training course a week or so before the accident. I remain convinced that this training gave him the wherewithal to make it out of the aircraft and to survive for (confirmed) several hours in the cold February waters.
Mr. North wrote:
Last May I returned for a third season at so-and-so's outposts. I was flying camp checks and passengers for roughly two weeks and on every flight I wore my new Mustang PFD. Then all of a sudden my employer confronted me and declared he would no longer allow me to wear the PFD. His reasons were;
-It makes the passengers nervous.
-It signals to the boss that you intend to crash.
-It would hamper your egress from the aircraft.
What as ass. That's like saying that bringing a survival and first aid kit signals you intend crash and injure you or your passengers, or that bringing air sick bags means you intend to make your pax .. You're better off somewhere else.
I always thought that in a float plane you were better off carrying the survival kit in the floats. It would be way easier to remove from a flipped plane that way.
Rowdy, if you do go pick one up make sure it's the manual one. They look identical to the automatic ones.
Everyone seemed fine with Mr. Norths and My PFDs.. he had the red one.. i had the blue one.. I took a lot less questioning as it was much more discreet.
I have only ever had one passenger decline the wearing of a constant wear PFD in a pre-flight briefing (and he was the type of person who would smoke a cigarette while he fueled his car!). Women think it is a great idea and men put it on (after they get off the macho horse) when they find out that I WILL be wearing mine.
In addition, that employer might find out that not allowing the use of safety equipment by an employee could be used against him in the future if there was an accident. 30 years ago people flew all the time without a headset, but those days are gone. Would this same employer tell you not to wear a headset that protects your hearing?
Widow wrote:I've always found it disturbing that operators AND TCCA site passenger fear as being a reason not to mandate the use of PFDs in all phases of flight ...
I'm just curious to know if you have a reference where the regulator has said anything about passenger fear in relation to wearing flotation equipment?
Here is one link that implies otherwise:
Life preserver location and operation
Locate yours! Know how to reach it, how to put it on and how to inflate it. Seaplanes are required to carry life preservers or personal flotation devices (PFD) for every occupant. Check with your pilot to see if the life preserver is to be worn in-flight. If so, wear it, but NEVER INFLATE IT WHILE IN THE AIRCRAFT.
The response below is the only one that I can recall that specifically dealt with the wearing of flotation equipment. However, the recommendation was from 1994 and at the time, there were technical issues related to the design and durability of the equipment. Those sorts of concerns are continuously being addressed through new standards and designs, such as UL1180 devices, which will be permitted for use once the Airworthiness Manual is updated. Here is the NPA, which was accepted through CARAC and is just awaiting the legal review:
In view of the continuing vulnerability of the occupants of seaplanes in accidents on the water to drowning, and since nearly four-fifths of fatal seaplane accidents which terminated in the water occurred during the take-off or the approach and landing phase, the Board, having considered advances in permanent wear, damage resistant, inflatable life-jackets, recommends that:
The Department of Transport require that all occupants of seaplanes wear a personal flotation device during the standing, taxiing, take-off, and approach and landing phases of flight. A94-07
Transport Canada's Response:
Transport Canada Aviation (TCA) has identified a requirement to update the Life Saving Equipment Order, (A.N.O., Series II, No.8 ) and to improve life preservers currently in use.
During consultation with industry, operators of floatplanes and amphibians pointed out that life preservers are not rugged enough for everyday wear, are unsuitable for frequent donning and doffing and are expensive. Continuing research and development is being conducted by TCA to improve life preserver design. In addition, TCA will present the proposal to make the wearing of such devices a regulatory requirement to the Work Group of the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council (CARAC) which is currently developing recommendations pertaining to Life Saving Equipment requirements. The Work Group will be asked to assess the safety implications of the proposal.
There is a widespread concern in the aviation industry regarding additional risks inherent in the wearing of the life vests during the standing, taxiing, take-off and landing phases of flight. It is claimed that marine cushions that are in wide-spread supplementary use are more likely to aid in water accidents.
TCA will not legislate that all occupants of seaplanes wear a personal flotation device during the standing, taxiing, take-off, and approach and landing phases of flight until clear safety benefits can be quantified. The revised legislation will require the life preservers to be within was reach of each seated passenger. This will increase their availability to all the occupants in the seaplane.
Twin chamber Switlik is what I use when I ferry. It has a whistle and a light as well as pockets to carry your survival gear. I did some research before buying and this one IMHO is the best. Around 600 if I remeber correctly.
