Yeah, never mind common sense combined with skill and experience, what you really need to keep you safe is more reading.summitx wrote:You guys need to do some reading on human factors and decision making.
An unprofessional operator - what to do?
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shimmydampner
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How about when PASCO comes into YBL, 90% of the time, they will not conform to what the active is, if the active is 11, and even if their is 2 or 3 planes in the circuit, PASCO will still choose to come straight-in on 29, same with when the active is 29, and PASCO is departing, they will depart 11 even if the active is 29, but CMA will conform to the circuit, even if it is out of the way for them too. I look at it as a issue of professonalism and airmanship.
That's because the company culture between CMA and PASCO is VERY different. Why do you think so many more people go on from CMA to AC and WJ than from PASCO.
No one expects PASCO to do everything by the book always, but just because you're a 1900 and the plane in the circuit is a 206 or a 182 doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want and he should just get out of your way.
No one expects PASCO to do everything by the book always, but just because you're a 1900 and the plane in the circuit is a 206 or a 182 doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want and he should just get out of your way.
Alright I'm going to bite on this one! I'm read post on here time to time and usually laugh off the bs and sift through to the Useful stuff, but this one struck a soft spot.
First off, I work for Pasco. I find the company to be VERY professional, and our safety record to be in good standing. All of the pilots at pasco know what a wind sock looks like, and where to find them on the field.
I have been behind Cma, Jazz, Eclipse (carson air), and Nt air...all of whom were lining up to take a slight tailwind for operational purposes. Does this make them unprofessional? The answer is NO! They, like us consider all factors, such as runway length, tail wind/ headwind compnent, and weather conditions. CYVR seems to think a small tailwind is alright, as the only time RWY 12 is active is when there is a quartering tail wind. HMMM, seems to be just safe for all operators out of there.
If a 1900 can't take a 5 kt tail wind on a 6000ft strip into williams lake, then perhaps the pilot needs more training...not a human factors course. Further, if it was UNPROFESSIONAL or UNSAFE, then why do the aircraft manufacturers publish charts with tail wind scenarios?
Now back to Trail. The airport comes with many challenges, weather paterns, terrain, and lack of weather forecasting. Of course the rosevelt MOA is often active south of the 49th parallel aswell. But of course from your handheld radio, summitx, you have taken into consideration all of these scenarios, and determines us to be unprofessional from the far side of the fence!!! Pasco has served your town for 2 years there safely, with great success, and hopes to continue in the future. I'm sure you don't complain when Jazz doesn't even try to get into castlegar, but the weather in trail is nice, and your friends and family get to travel without delay.
Summitx, perhaps at your next meeting at the flying club, you should appologize to your collegues of the club that are at the airport day after day without fail helping us operate safely into Trail. I should add without pay, but merely because they love aviation. These guys pass us traffic info, and local conditions. It is a shame that you have taken a great destination for us, and turned it into crew room talk of the day. It seems to me that we as the pasco pilots cannot please all of you at the flying club. You appear to be concerned about safety, yet when we conduct a missed approach and return to Vancouver, one of you is right there with a letter to the president complaining about "how we should have gotten in".
Its too bad a few of you spoil it for the bunch. Perhaps next time you spout off on here, you will consider all the relevant information.
I wish this site was more about pilots helping pilots gain more insight into the industry. That experienced pilots are willing to answer questions that newer pilot may have. We should all be a little less judgemental and enjoy the view we have. Just because your tail is painted different, or your paycheck is bigger than others, doesn't give you the right to stand on a podium. Sorry for the rant, but I just needed to set the record straight.
First off, I work for Pasco. I find the company to be VERY professional, and our safety record to be in good standing. All of the pilots at pasco know what a wind sock looks like, and where to find them on the field.
I have been behind Cma, Jazz, Eclipse (carson air), and Nt air...all of whom were lining up to take a slight tailwind for operational purposes. Does this make them unprofessional? The answer is NO! They, like us consider all factors, such as runway length, tail wind/ headwind compnent, and weather conditions. CYVR seems to think a small tailwind is alright, as the only time RWY 12 is active is when there is a quartering tail wind. HMMM, seems to be just safe for all operators out of there.
If a 1900 can't take a 5 kt tail wind on a 6000ft strip into williams lake, then perhaps the pilot needs more training...not a human factors course. Further, if it was UNPROFESSIONAL or UNSAFE, then why do the aircraft manufacturers publish charts with tail wind scenarios?
Now back to Trail. The airport comes with many challenges, weather paterns, terrain, and lack of weather forecasting. Of course the rosevelt MOA is often active south of the 49th parallel aswell. But of course from your handheld radio, summitx, you have taken into consideration all of these scenarios, and determines us to be unprofessional from the far side of the fence!!! Pasco has served your town for 2 years there safely, with great success, and hopes to continue in the future. I'm sure you don't complain when Jazz doesn't even try to get into castlegar, but the weather in trail is nice, and your friends and family get to travel without delay.
Summitx, perhaps at your next meeting at the flying club, you should appologize to your collegues of the club that are at the airport day after day without fail helping us operate safely into Trail. I should add without pay, but merely because they love aviation. These guys pass us traffic info, and local conditions. It is a shame that you have taken a great destination for us, and turned it into crew room talk of the day. It seems to me that we as the pasco pilots cannot please all of you at the flying club. You appear to be concerned about safety, yet when we conduct a missed approach and return to Vancouver, one of you is right there with a letter to the president complaining about "how we should have gotten in".
Its too bad a few of you spoil it for the bunch. Perhaps next time you spout off on here, you will consider all the relevant information.
I wish this site was more about pilots helping pilots gain more insight into the industry. That experienced pilots are willing to answer questions that newer pilot may have. We should all be a little less judgemental and enjoy the view we have. Just because your tail is painted different, or your paycheck is bigger than others, doesn't give you the right to stand on a podium. Sorry for the rant, but I just needed to set the record straight.
Well we should let this one go. The defensive nature of some of the pasco pilots suggests they see no opportunity to add a little more safety to ops and consideration of other airspace users. The tailwind thing well you are correct there are many situations where it is the call. I have taken lots of tailwinds as have most reading this who have flown much. However I believe if you get in the habit of taking unnecessary risks and playing with the edge of the safety envelope it will eventually bite you.
To set the record straight as you say, I do not own a hand held. My observations have been while airborn in the airspace a number of times over the last 18 months. Generally I think its a safe and mostly professional operation but there is room for improvement. I aplogize for my lack of tack in my second post and perhaps the title of this thread. As you say the flying club folks are great and working hard to accomodate pasco. The community really wants a sked into Trail but we also want the safest operation possible. We have some history with less than acceptable operations from past operators. I don't go to the meetings and would never critize a pilots decision to not continue with an approach.
Flogging a dead horse
Have a great day and stay safe.
To set the record straight as you say, I do not own a hand held. My observations have been while airborn in the airspace a number of times over the last 18 months. Generally I think its a safe and mostly professional operation but there is room for improvement. I aplogize for my lack of tack in my second post and perhaps the title of this thread. As you say the flying club folks are great and working hard to accomodate pasco. The community really wants a sked into Trail but we also want the safest operation possible. We have some history with less than acceptable operations from past operators. I don't go to the meetings and would never critize a pilots decision to not continue with an approach.
Flogging a dead horse
Have a great day and stay safe.
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Uncomfortable Silence
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a missed approach supposed to be the ace in the hole? That's your way out if things come off the rails, both Ifr or Vfr. That's regardless of the airport. I'm pretty sure Transport would eat the PIC alive if the reason for an accident was "I had to blow minimums and continue to land because there was no way I could go missed...." 
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
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Cat Driver
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Which is an interesting claim, First off let me say that I don't think anyone at PASCO would be dumb enough to dip below the mins on any appch never mind the GPS approach into Trail.I think quickfixx is claiming they landed by going below the limits.....
Second of all, how can you make such a claim, were you sitting inside the cockpit watching the altimeter, or did you kneel between the two pilots and see exactly what they saw?
Or did you estimate from the ground, base it off the Metar in CYCG? What did you use to come to this conclusion?
While I love some of the unsubstantiated rumors that start things here, I'm gonna have to call you on this one.
Taking a quick read at your posts (all 10 of em) they all seem to be bashing PASCO operations out of Trail. The people of Trail and surrounding area appreciate the service, and PASCO seems to be doing fairly well business wise. And I doubt they would be able to operate incident free for as long as they have if they where pulling off half the stuff that seems to be claimed in this thread.
My point exactly, but you beat me to it. Its amazing how many people feel they have the expert opinion especially from the ground or sitting in the cockpit of another airplane. If your not in the plane then you have no idea what is going on. I have shot many approaches where only minutes prior the another aircraft had missed and we got in safely. Sure missing radio calls are not exactly good airmanship, but we all forget sometimes, especially in a high workload environment. Tailwind landings are sometimes the best option. Maneuvering in that narrow valley and crossing midfield to check the sock is somtimes not the best thing to do, again not in the cockpit so who knows. Calling out the entire company, no I dont work there, as an unprofessional operator is in itself unprofessional. Educate yourself before making judgements such as this. All pilots make mistakes once in awhile, but generalizing an entire company, CMA does this, Borek does that, JAZZ does this, PASCO does that, holy crap already. Just because someone in a 1900D entering the circuit at 140kts compared to your 80kts wants to go straight in and there is no conflict whats the problem.
Maybe we can call you for lacking airmanship for not accomodating this traffic, who not only is burning way more gas, going way faster and costs way more an hour than a 172 and on a sched. Now don't jump all over me bigger isn't more important and no one should feel that way, just look at it from the other side.
Husky said
"That's because the company culture between CMA and PASCO is VERY different. Why do you think so many more people go on from CMA to AC and WJ than from PASCO.
WTF does that mean, no one from PASCO goes to AC?
Maybe we can call you for lacking airmanship for not accomodating this traffic, who not only is burning way more gas, going way faster and costs way more an hour than a 172 and on a sched. Now don't jump all over me bigger isn't more important and no one should feel that way, just look at it from the other side.
Husky said
"That's because the company culture between CMA and PASCO is VERY different. Why do you think so many more people go on from CMA to AC and WJ than from PASCO.
WTF does that mean, no one from PASCO goes to AC?
yup ... most of them multi ifr instructors out of zbb and ypk lol. Although they have experience with de-icing eqpsky's the limit wrote:And exactly what is that supposed to mean?Phileas Fogg wrote:yeah thats brutal.
I'd go out and talk to the pilots after they landed and tell them they're not in the arctic anymore.
In my experience, there's few places as unforgiving as the arctic. You operate from places that don't let you off the hook easily like the pavement down south. Also, I'm fairly certain that PCA has very few pilots with any kind of Arctic experience.
As for the aledged infractions, talk to the pilots first next time, if that doesn't meet a decent response, then as XS says, call the CP.
stl
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Uncomfortable Silence
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but I've seen Pasco exceed approach limits in bad weather flying into CAD4 on more than one occasion as well. In that narrow valley a missed approach could be disasterous.
My interpretation was that more that quikfixxx was justifing minimum busting because the valley is narrow making a missed approach an unavailable option. I just felt it nessecary to point out what bad airmanship that would be by any pilot or operator, at any airport, in any condition! (Thanks for pointing out my inadequate posting ability Cat Driver...hahahaI think quickfixx is claiming they landed by going below the limits.....
)BTW, regarding the rest of the thread, having dealt with Pasco on numerous occasions I've found their operation to be excellent to deal with. They have treated me with courtesy into numerous airports, adjusting the pattern to accomodate several incompatable types of aircraft in congested narrow valleys.
As for reports of busting minimums I find it very hard to judge from the ground, or even from another cockpit, what the pilot sees at the missed point. Lighting, surronding environment, oddball weather, type of approach, and aircraft type all effect what is seen at the MAP. Mountainous terrain only amplifies these effects working both for and against the pilot sometimes. That is part of what makes mountain flying challenging. At an airport with no official weather service, all of the decisions are left to the PIC (since no approach ban is in place
) I am definately not condoning breaking minimums, but it is very difficult to assess from outside the cockpit what was going on inside the cockpit. Making the decision to continue is why pilots are payed the big bucks 
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
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Cat Driver
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There is the answer.....read human factors and you will not need any real life experience.....summitx wrote:
You guys need to do some reading on human factors and decision making.
...yeh that is what those Pasco pilots need......
....
......but how do we fix that bit about you can't take the bush out of the pilot?
Boy this flying thing sure is complicated.....
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: An unprofessional operator - what to do?
This is a great post! I don't know why it took someone at work talking about it for me to look it up!!
I once had a rather portly older gent come and ream me and a check pilot out for not landing on the "active runway" (we were the only plane in the circuit). It would have been funny except it was kinda sad that this guy had to do stuff like that to feel important.
Another time I had another older gent really light into me in front of my future ex wife for touching a prop on an airplane at the Abbotsford airshow: "propellers are dangerous, you shouldn't touch it cause it can kill you...." He said leaning on the plane like it was his. I says "Thank you sir I'll be careful of that when I fly it home this afternoon."
There are dicks everywhere. Some might even fly for Pasco! Of course there might just be things done differently that what your used to. Sometimes they might be honest mistakes. You'll just never know unless you ask them eh?
I once had a rather portly older gent come and ream me and a check pilot out for not landing on the "active runway" (we were the only plane in the circuit). It would have been funny except it was kinda sad that this guy had to do stuff like that to feel important.
Another time I had another older gent really light into me in front of my future ex wife for touching a prop on an airplane at the Abbotsford airshow: "propellers are dangerous, you shouldn't touch it cause it can kill you...." He said leaning on the plane like it was his. I says "Thank you sir I'll be careful of that when I fly it home this afternoon."
There are dicks everywhere. Some might even fly for Pasco! Of course there might just be things done differently that what your used to. Sometimes they might be honest mistakes. You'll just never know unless you ask them eh?
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just a guy
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Re: An unprofessional operator - what to do?
I guess we Pasco pilots are just a bunch of retards...
I mean seriously we know the rules. Safety is always top priority and people should know that ATC and TC would be all over us if we did the things this thread is accusing.
But then again I guess I'm just another Pasco pilot getting defensive.
Also do we really want this to be a place where we can actually get questions answered? There would be half as many members and probably a fraction of the posts. This is more fun. It's like the fact that humans are given the internet, an amazing way to share information, and what do we mainly use it for? Pictures of naked ladies... (not that this is a bad thing).
Go human race!
I mean seriously we know the rules. Safety is always top priority and people should know that ATC and TC would be all over us if we did the things this thread is accusing.
But then again I guess I'm just another Pasco pilot getting defensive.
Also do we really want this to be a place where we can actually get questions answered? There would be half as many members and probably a fraction of the posts. This is more fun. It's like the fact that humans are given the internet, an amazing way to share information, and what do we mainly use it for? Pictures of naked ladies... (not that this is a bad thing).
Go human race!
