chutes away....any advice?

ottawa,kan · Post by **ottawa,kan** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:48 pm

I've got a friend with thousands of parachute jumps under his belt. In fact I want to say over 10,000 but that seems kind of hard to believe. Anyway he really really wants to jump out of my Stinson. It's a 108-3, 4 place 165hp Franklin. Tailwheel of course. Evidently these jump idiots get major bonus points on the brag circuit for jumping from an unusual airplane. So I'm game but a little nervous. He says " no problem, slow to 80, point the nose down a little and I'll open the door, step out and be gone." So is that all there is too it?

quickflight · Post by **quickflight** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:12 pm

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:42 pm

Until you hear the Thunk against the horiztonal stab....

J/K of course, I don't have the balls to leap out of an airplane, something about "Sudden stop at the end that hurts" that keeps me from trying

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:17 pm

Should be fine.

Make sure you wear a chute too and know how to bail out in case he damages your airplane on the way out and makes it impossible to control. Can you take the doors off your plane? Might make it easier for both of you.

black hole · Post by **black hole** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:59 pm

You might want to take the RH door off so he can get out without damaging the door.Its no biggy; I've dropper jumpers from a Stinson about 30 years ago.

twotterflogger · Post by **twotterflogger** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:10 am

Should not be a problem, however check with your insurance agent/broker, as you might get a nasty surprise if something bad happens....

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:56 am

You better hope Transport doesn't read this.

In Canada, it is illegal to drop jumpers without a 702 AOC. Friends of mine were recently fined $50,000 by Enforcement for doing this.

Transport got so upset about them dropping jumpers without an AOC, they sent in FOUR armed RCMP officers to smash the place up, seize everything that wasn't nailed down, and hold a founding Civil Aviation Tribunal judge at gunpoint without cause for 6 hours - with an invalid warrant, no less (wrong address).

Also, be careful about removing doors ... I know a pilot that Enforcement nailed for $2,200 for taking a door off - and it was a quick-release!

If you take doors off, it had better be in accordance with the POH/AFM or an STC which specifies the ops limits with the doors off, and the removal and installation of the doors MUST be signed off by an AME, otherwise Enforcement will eat you for breakfast.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:06 am

Make a secret rendezvous at a remote spot with your friend.
Jack your aircraft up and have him jump out.
Then he can boast about jumping out of a Stinson. Do it in the dark if the embellishment works for him.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:11 am

tell your friend to find his adrenalin 'fix' somewhere else. It ain't worth it for you.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:17 am

In Canada, it is illegal to drop jumpers without a 702 AOC. Friends of mine were recently fined $50,000 by Enforcement for doing this

Did they pay it?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:45 am

Did they pay it?

That's going to be for the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court, and Federal Court of Appeals to decide.

Basically, it's just another day in aviation in Canada.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:53 am

Having had some exposure into how TCCA works I would be interested in knowing why so high a fine.

As to the Tribunal, from my experience with them they are just another good old boys club looking after their own cronies.

Tribunal = Kangaroo court rubber stamp.

Sort of a " Quality Assurance " with teeth....

What a farce the whole system is...Democratic my ass.

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:56 pm

Wow, nevermind what I said. The regs must have slipped my mind. Seemed like a simple operation at first glance. Run for the hills!

ottawa,kan · Post by **ottawa,kan** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:07 pm

Thanks for all the tips. I'll look into the regs here. If I have to wear a chute too...or ought to, then forget it. I'm terrified of heights. As for enforcement...I think that's pretty unlikely where I live. Pretty deserted here in extreme southern saskatchewan. Too damn many lawyers in the world, that's for sure. As well as insurance agents and politicians. Oh well. I'm going to give it some more thought.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:10 pm

Actually looproll, without denigrating our other contributors, your comment about wearing a chute would be the most important one made.

The smallest safety item is more important than the biggest legal one.

DO NOT DROP JUMPERS WITHOUT BEING READY TO JUMP YOURSELF.

The Other Kind · Post by **The Other Kind** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:35 pm

Why would you need a 702 AOC if you were not charging for the flight? I can see TC having an issue with a private pilot/aircraft flying jumpers for a skydive club, but I'm not sure why they would have a problem with you taking your buddy up at no cost to him.

Hedley, what are the circumstances surrounding your friends $50 000 fine? Were they charging the jumpers for the ride to altitude?

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:35 pm

Hello,

Stinson4118C, you list your location as Kansas, are you operating out of the US? What about your plane's registration and your licences? (Just wanted to make sure)

Hedley wrote:In Canada, it is illegal to drop jumpers without a 702 AOC.

Off the top of my head, wouldn't an SFOC alone be sufficient in this situation as it is a private pilot, on a private flight, on an equally private airplane?

Goodbye,

Louis

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:36 am

wouldn't an SFOC alone be sufficient

No. But you don't have to believe me - call your local Enforcement office and ask for yourself.

I personally verified this by asking my region for an SFOC to privately drop non-revenue jumpers, and they refused to do so, and told me that ALL paradrop activity in Canada - regardless of revenue - must be conducted IAW a CAR 702 "aerial work" AOC.

Following quote is from the reply I received from Transport:

the carriage of parachutists is deemed to be aerial work and requires an Air Operator Certificate issued under Section 702 of the CARs.

Between that and the $50,000 fine, I think Transport has made it's position pretty clear on this.

If $50,000 is pocket change to you - a certain timmies co-founder comes to mind - well then go right on ahead and do it anyway.

ottawa,kan · Post by **ottawa,kan** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:09 pm

Louis...yes I'm really in Kansas. Ottawa Kansas in fact. Same indians...much smaller town. I was mainly hoping for flight type advice, but the regs stuff is interesting too. Obviously the FAA regs are different, so I'll think about them too. But we're pretty loose on following regs here. At least amongst the yokels I fly with. Anyway, the advice that I should wear a chute too seems reasonable and pretty much nixes it for me. But we'll see.

albertdesalvo · Post by **albertdesalvo** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:07 am

clunckdriver wrote:I gues I had better not mention that I have one more take of than landings in my log book

I'd like to hear THAT story!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:13 am

I'm really in Kansas

Just as there is no FTU OC required in the USA to offer flight instruction,
nor is an AOC required in the USA to dump jumpers. It's a much
different world, south of the border.

Wearing a chute can be difficult if the seat cushions don't come out,
but there are many different styles of chutes - bumpacks, backpacks,
and thinner wrap-around style. If you know some aerobatic pilots
you might be able to borrow one of theirs.

Another point about dumping jumpers is to stand on the brakes
when they climb out. If your aircraft doesn't have a step installed
jumpers like to put their feet on the tires sometimes as they climb
out and hang on the strut.

A great way to dump jumpers is to roll upside down - in formation

bodyflyer · Post by **bodyflyer** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:13 am

wouldn't an SFOC alone be sufficient

I'd say not even an SFOC is required in Canada in many cases, due to the existing "EXEMPTION FROM PARAGRAPH 602.26(a) AND SECTION 603.37". Basically jumps in controlled airspace are OK with coordination with ATC. (The SFOC will still be needed for special aviation events, and jumps "over or into a built up area or open-air assembly of persons" that also require an exhibition jump rating by the skydivers.)

As for the part 702 Aerial Work issue, I'd like to see how things work out with that seemingly crazy enforcement case Hedley writes about, and hear more about the details.

I've done jumps where the pilot hasn't worn a parachute. It's not considered mandatory, but it is a very good idea in the long run, or if it is a difficult aircraft to exit.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:20 pm

Here's the deal don't tell anyone the where and when take off from an uncontrolled Airstrip. Pitch your buddy out and remeber these words
"I have no clear memory of these events as you have decribe them"

let him buy the beer that night! your not flying for Reward (except booze)so piss on TC. Show me the Reg that says jumping out of a plane is illegal, perhaps you had no idea what your buddy had in mind and did it without your knowledge or consent.

another good tip take a good hunting knife with you incase something gets tangled on your controls.

Greg87 · Post by **Greg87** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:43 pm

From the almighty CAR's

623.65(e) Entering or Leaving an Aircraft in Flight

(1) The following standards apply to the application for and the operation of aircraft pursuant to CAR 602.25(b).

(2) An application for a Special Flight Operations Certificate for the purpose of operating a powered aircraft while persons enter, or except for parachute descents, leave powered aircraft in flight shall be received by the appropriate Regional Transport Canada General Aviation Office, at least 10 working days prior to the date of the proposed operation or by a date mutually agreed upon between the applicant and Transport Canada.

(3) The following constitutes an application for a Special Flight Operations Certificate for the purpose of operations in paragraph (2) above:

(a) the name, address, and where applicable, the telephone number and facsimile number of the applicant;

(b) the name, address, and where applicable the telephone number and facsimile number of the person designated by the applicant to have operational control over the operation (Operation Manager);

(c) method by which the Operation Manager may be contacted directly while the operation is taking place;

(d) a description and purpose of the operation;

(e) the dates, alternate dates and times of the proposed operation;

(f) certification that the governing municipality has been informed of the proposed operation and has no objection;

(g) the type(s) and registration(s) of all aircraft involved in the operation;

(h) the names and pilot licence numbers of all the pilots involved in the operation;

(i) for proposed pilots that hold licences not issued by the Minister, copies of their licences and medical certifications;

(j) the security plan for the area(s) of operation and security plan for the area(s) to be overflown to ensure no hazard is created to persons or property on the surface;

(k) a detailed plan describing how the operation will be carried out including a clear, legible presentation of the area to be used during the operation. The presentation may be in the form of a scale diagram, aerial photograph or large scale topographical chart and must include a minimum of the following information:

(i) the altitudes and routes to be used on the approach and departure to and from the area(s) where the operation will be carried out;

(ii) the location and height above ground of all obstacles in the approach and departure path to the area(s) where the operation will be carried out;

(iii) the exact boundaries of the area(s) where the actual operation will be carried out;

(iv) the altitudes and routes to be used while carrying out the operation;

(m) any other information pertinent to the safe conduct of the operation requested by the Minister.

Don't know if that helps.