is working for NavCan THAT bad?

sid four · Post by **sid four** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:40 pm

So I'm suppose to be heading to NCTI for FSS 0705B March 17th, but I keep hearing tails of woe and bureaucratic horror from both current and past NavCan employees, and it's seriously making me question my choices...

Specifically, I've been told that

-the start date to my course is BS and will likely be delayed at least once
-they really have no idea how long the course will last, or whether it'll be aimed at FIC or FSS postings
-and that I could make it to Cornwall, work my ass off, get a posting, continue to work my ass off, and still be fired for no real reason other than a supervisor's whim

Any thoughts would be helpful, en particulier de ceux qui sont au Québec puisque je fais le cours francais, or from anyone who gave up a flying career to do ATS...

Thanks.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:27 pm

1. Could happen, but happens more with ATC courses than FSS
2. If the course is on the Training Institute Schedule, there's a pretty good chance that they know which it will be for
3. A supervisor can't fire anybody. If you're still in training they could say you don't meet standards. they better have evidence to back that up. There's a process that must be gone through before you would get cease trained. If you have finished training, but still on probation, again, the supervisor could say you don't meet standards (with evidence to back that up). You would be given an opportunity to improve, with coaching/additional training.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:58 pm

The last point is not true, being fired on a whim.

If you're not up to snuff to do the job then yes you will be CT'd at any point during training, but not before going through all the hoops to try and fix any problems you may have.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:37 pm

sid four wrote: -the start date to my course is BS and will likely be delayed at least once

Maybe, I doubt it though.

-they really have no idea how long the course will last, or whether it'll be aimed at FIC or FSS postings

BS. The AAS course is 90 odd class days, 4 months at NCTI. The FIC transition course is another few months, I'm not exactly sure of the length, but it is a fixed length course. They won't tell you where you're going until the end of the course, or even where you might be going, but they do know where the openings will be. You can count on there probably being a few people from your course sent to FICs, likely Quebec if it's the bilingual course.

-and that I could make it to Cornwall, work my ass off, get a posting, continue to work my ass off, and still be fired for no real reason other than a supervisor's whim

Total BS. There's a 1 year probationary period for new employees, where the company could potentially can you without cause, but I haven't heard of it ever being exercised. It'd be management that makes that decision, though, not the team supervisor. If you can do the job, and you're not completely intolerable, there's no way you'd be subjected to it. The company needs to hire hundreds of FSS over the next several years to maintain current staffing levels, they're not going to dismiss you without a good reason.

Any thoughts would be helpful

Ignore the rumours you read on here.

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:53 pm

A lot of what you hear on here is really the negative part of it. Some of it isn't always true. What you don't hear is how unique and awesome the job is!

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:30 pm

Braun wrote:A lot of what you hear on here is really the negative part of it. Some of it isn't always true. What you don't hear is how unique and awesome the job is!

it's the truth. as much as you see my cynicism around here at times, i wouldn't trade this job for the world.

the company isn't much to work for, but the job is amazing. i like coming to work every single day.

bigfssguy · Post by **bigfssguy** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:11 pm

thatdaveguy wrote:
Braun wrote:A lot of what you hear on here is really the negative part of it. Some of it isn't always true. What you don't hear is how unique and awesome the job is!
it's the truth. as much as you see my cynicism around here at times, i wouldn't trade this job for the world.

the company isn't much to work for, but the job is amazing. i like coming to work every single day.

I have my issues with the company but my job vastly outweighs the negative issues. Though they can be annoying and frustrating at times they are bearable and something you can live through.

I love my job, i wake up every morning and i look forward to going to work, even though my site is very slow and boring. I see all those pilots and lurkers on the ramp freezing there butts off loading planes and doing walk arounds while i sit in my tower with a hot cup of coffee and a smile.

Your entering into the best job in the world, go through the process and see for yourself.....You'll be glad you did.

tesox2 · Post by **tesox2** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:00 am

best job I have ever had, best company I have ever worked for. My opinion...Ive worked for 3 large corporations, and this has been the best environment...perhaps thats because of my location.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:58 am

tesox2 wrote:best job I have ever had, best company I have ever worked for. My opinion...Ive worked for 3 large corporations, and this has been the best environment...perhaps thats because of my location.

I would agree with this comment.

The last company I worked for tended to bend a bit more to help their employees, but as far as working environment and love of my job so far it can't be beat.

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:32 am

I think it can all boil down to this:

It is a great career with awesome co-workers. The problems at the national level generally don't affect you on a day to day basis. The local level is another issue. If you are at a site with poor and/or ineffective local management you will tend to see more dissatisfaction, though again, it is not with the job.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:48 am

cpl_atc wrote:Some of the complaints about NC are quite obviously from those who have no idea what the "real world" is really like. So ignore them. I do.

This is total bull. Almost everyone that I know that works for NC have spent many years working other careers before coming here and almost all dislike the company. I find that it's generally the young guys that don't have experience in the real world that have a hard on for the company and defend it at all costs. I've worked for many different companies both unionized and non in the private sector. Some of them were just as bad or worse than NC but most were far better in the way they handled their employees and their lives.

Generally the company isn't as bad as they're perceived but once you've worked here long enough, most people get screwed over in one way or another. For some, it's just a number of small things over many years. For others its a huge slap right away and then numerous jabs for years to come. As an employee you're nothing more than a number to them and like many corporations, if they can manipulate that number they will. The only difference is NC can really manipulate the numbers at times.

Right now there are several people that were forced into signing away their job security prior to their initial posting. They were posted to airports in the Toronto area and a year or so after they qualified and were working on their own licence, had to go to Toronto Int'l. If they didn't qualify there, they could potentially end up on the street. So the first two through this great program have now been with the company for 4 years and just got turfed out of YYZ. Now they've been sent to another airport 1,000 miles away and if they don't make it, could be out of a job and have wasted over 4 years of their life on career training that's completely useless.

Another example are 2 employees getting transfered out of Hamilton after having worked there for a number of years. The company over staffed the tower and now instead of waiting a few years for the 3 guys that could leave tomorrow to retire, they're doing a shuffle in all of the towers that are overstaffed. So despite having made a life at their current locations, several families are getting reposted around the country to pinch a few pennies. The day after they transfer the guys at YHM, they could have 3 guys retire there and be short staffed again.

I guess to CPL, those are ridiculous things but its things like this that put a really bitter taste in your mouth that never goes away.

Whether or not the working atmosphere is good or not depends a lot on your manager. Staffing levels, holidays, etc. are all manipulated by management and some are just horrible. I've had both extremes good and bad and the difference is night and day.

Would I suggest you come work for them? Yes, the job is great and for the most part you can deal with the company. Just remember that once you get here, the union is your only safeguard. I wasn't much of a union guy before I got here but I've never seen a company that'll care less about you. If it wasn't for the union we'd be getting paid nothing, with no time off and have numerous serious problems. Everything that CPL lists as good things the company does, are all a result of negotiations made through the union. The guys that bitch and moan the loudest are just tired of fighting.

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:49 am

I worked 10 years for a rental car company that is international. The coworkers and the situation made them good to work for in Montreal, and terrible to work for in Toronto. Some of the local stations were fun to work for, others were work.

Like all jobs, it depends on your immediate boss, your own attitude, and the attitudes of those around you. Like all jobs, things are usually frustrating when you are dealing with the "head office" on things.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:37 pm

While most controllers I know have worked in other fields, there are quite a few that have only done ATC and nothing else since high school.

sigmet77 · Post by **sigmet77** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:54 pm

You'll hear some staff complain for years, maybe decades, but they keep working for the company don't they. It is not like you are working for Google but it beats the shit out of TC. The pay is pretty good, the company is slowly getting better and if you work with good people, like I do, then it isn't bad at all. If someone offers you a job that pays well and the only way you don't get hired is if you don't try hard enough are you really going to say no? I have my complaints about NC just like anyone else, but you don't see me heading to the door either.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:26 pm

I think it would have to get pretty darn bad before anyone leaves the paychecks behind.

sid four · Post by **sid four** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:30 pm

Thanks for all the replies!
I've been trying to take everything I hear with a grain of salt, and check it out for myself, but it is really nice to hear some positive feedback from people who love the work.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:48 pm

After spending 8 years working the ramp slinging bags and de-icing fluid, it's nice to finally beon the top of the food chain instead of on the bottom

Half joking

It's a very professional environment, in fact for a short time I was doing ATC and the ramp on days off once or twice a month for the exercise, it was interesting to note the difference in pilots tones

tesox2 · Post by **tesox2** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:04 pm

Justplanecrazy. Why are you still working for NC if it is so bad? Really? Nothing drives me crazier than people who whine about how bad they have it, especially when they have a choice. You need a reality check.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:48 pm

tesox2 wrote:Justplanecrazy. Why are you still working for NC if it is so bad? Really? Nothing drives me crazier than people who whine about how bad they have it, especially when they have a choice. You need a reality check.

Tesox2 why are you whining about JPC "whining"? Nothing drives me crazier than someone asking a question - a person giving their opinion - and then someone else (who disagrees) calling them a whiner for voicing said opinion.

If it's really that great of a company to work for I'm sure that will be self evident and opinions will be weeded out. Apparently it's not........

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:15 pm

tesox2 did you bother to read my post or just thought you'd whine about people whining???

Like I said I love the job and dislike the company and you'll find that's the attitude of most of the employees here. tesox2, did you not see the results of the surveys taken by Hewitt Associates??? Even Hewitt was shocked!!! If it wasn't for the union, I would be leaving. If you think all the perks of working for the company are given to you at the companies free will and not as a direct result of our union, then its you who needs the reality check. The one good thing is that the company has now acknowledged that there is a major problem in relations and hopefully things will change but I haven't seen that yet.

Like you said, location has a big part to do with it. The first unit that I worked in had the worst manager that I've ever had. Our leave was crap, we'd work with very little breaks on busy days because he reduced the overtime hours and staffing and the environment was crap. The unit I'm at now is great although, get rid of our current management and that could change.

I'm not whining, just giving a prospective employee an insight into how he can be treated. Do you think that the company is right in forcing people that just paid $2500, spent 4 months of their life training, being told to sign on the dotted line that says you have no job security with us for the next 4 years??? If you don't sign it, we won't even give you a posting???? Or after setting up a life in your location, being forced to transfer to solve the companies botched staffing plan, when it's going to correct itself in a few years???

This is a career job and you can't compare it to bag slinging (no offence inverted) which requires no education, skill or responsibility. Like inverted said, it's pretty hard to leave the paycheque but that doesn't mean I can't fight for a better work environment and tell future employees the truth.

I think Kevenv said it best

I think it can all boil down to this:

It is a great career with awesome co-workers. The problems at the national level generally don't affect you on a day to day basis. The local level is another issue. If you are at a site with poor and/or ineffective local management you will tend to see more dissatisfaction, though again, it is not with the job.

That is why I stay.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:24 pm

Maybe like Jazz/ACA we should have separate threads?

I have noticed a way more positive vibe amongst the FSS side. You pretty much know for the first few years after checkout yr goin where they send you.

Most of the FSS posters sound more positive anyway.

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:47 pm

what is a "break" justplanecrazy? i don't think i've ever had one of those.

southernFSS · Post by **southernFSS** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:06 am

First post here but I've worked for NC for just over 5 years. I worked crappy jobs before entering but had the opportunity to work at awesome busy southern sites where I worked with a lot of senior specialists.

It's a good job and benefits/conditions/pay are decent but I have to wholeheartedly agree with justplanecrazy. Everything we have is negotiated through our respective unions. The company at every opportunity has bargained in what I can only describe as bad faith. And that certainly has left many NC employees bitter, not because we're in such a poor working condition but rather because we are missing what could potentially be an amazing place to work had the company been truly looking out for its number one asset, its people.

Things fluctuate and the company is perceived right now as improving a little but the history and trends have left me a little disappointed and that's why lately I've been in the process of trying to get out and to land a good job before I leave where I can carry over my pension.

I really don't want to discourage anyone from working here, it really is a good fun job and sometimes I cannot believe that I get paid for doing what I do. I guess what I'm saying is we all have different standards and ideals for the career we choose, so what is amazing for some may not be for someone else.

tesox2 · Post by **tesox2** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:44 pm

Tesox2 why are you whining about JPC "whining"? Nothing drives me crazier than someone asking a question - a person giving their opinion - and then someone else (who disagrees) calling them a whiner for voicing said opinion.

If it's really that great of a company to work for I'm sure that will be self evident and opinions will be weeded out. Apparently it's not........

You're whining about me whining about JPC whining...

I love my job and I love my company...thats my opinion and my perspective.

55+ · Post by **55+** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:55 pm

There are other areas in Nav Canada outside of the ATS structure that can be just as rewarding like NCFIO/AIS, Tech services, ANS Planning and Priority to name a few. All major corporations have their hierarchy /bureaucratic structures and the positives/ negatives that go with it.
NC is no different and as you climb up the length of service ladder, you will either become cynical or accept the inevitable changes that continue to come your way.

Carry on!!!!!!

is working for NavCan THAT bad?

is working for NavCan THAT bad?

Re: is working for NavCan THAT bad?

Re: is working for NavCan THAT bad?