Vsse

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:20 pm

THEICEMAN:

I know it is not really going to change your mind about this subject.

But:

I hold an unrestricted Air Display Authorization and have been flying in the air show circuit all over Europe since 1997 in multi engine airplanes.

I also train pilots to a standard to pass the flight test.

Never, I repeat never do we get anywhere near VMC during our demonstrations nor do we ever practice flying at or near VMC.

I offer advice on this subject here on Avcanada for free, you and everyone else are free to accept my advise or reject it in favour of what your instructors teach you.

And I'm willing to bet I have more time in 60 degree bank turns below four hundred feet in multi engine airplanes than some of these whiz bang instructors have flying multi engine airplanes straight and level.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:33 pm

I hold an unrestricted Air Display Authorization and have been flying in the air show circuit all over Europe since 1997 in multi engine airplanes.

I also train pilots to a standard to pass the flight test.

You don' t practice VMC demo because that' s just not the purpose of the training you give.

When you practice VMC demo, this is 99.9% during your initial multi rating.

And you will never practice it again.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:41 pm

Never, I repeat never do we get anywhere near VMC during our demonstrations nor do we ever practice flying at or near VMC.

Have you ever done a stall with a multi engine (piston or turbine)?

If you answer is yes, then you have already practiced flying at or near VMC, because most of the time, VMC is above the stall speed.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:04 pm

You don' t practice VMC demo because that' s just not the purpose of the training you give.

So????

When you practice VMC demo, this is 99.9% during your initial multi rating.

During my multi engine training the instructor never once demonstrated flight at full power on one engine and the other one at zero thrust anywhere near VMC.

And you will never practice it again.

flight instructor over the many decades I have been flying multi engine airplanes I have practiced every conceivable flight attitude and speed the airplane is capable of......However I do not teach these manouvers because I see no reason to do so.

Have you ever done a stall with a multi engine (piston or turbine)?

I was doing stalls in multi engine airplanes in the late 1950's....what were you doing then?

If you answer
is yes, then you have already practiced flying at or near VMC, because most of the time, VMC is above the stall speed.

I just answered yes, however I don't think we are talking about the same thing......

To demonstrate or practice VMC you must be at full power on one engine and zero thrust on the other engine...and reduce speed to the point that you can not control yaw without reducing power on the operating engine, in that configuration you are subject to complete loss of control and possibly an unrecoverable spin....

Are your multi engine airplanes certified for spins?

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:26 pm

Look Cat, no one is questioning your crudentials. I have taken much of what u have said in the past months under consideration. Even flying taildraggers! Remember?

But all I can say is, that I am glad that I have done vmc demos in real life. Now I know what the symptons are & what will happen in the airplane.

And I'm willing to bet I have more time in 60 degree bank turns below four hundred feet in multi engine airplanes than some of these whiz bang instructors have flying multi engine airplanes straight and level.

You probably have......but your not the only experienced pilot out there. Some of the instructors/flight test examiners I have worked with have over 40 years of flying under their belt. If they feel the need to ask the student to bring it down to VMC, it's for a reason!
Some of these guys have also flown everything from taildraggers, to dc3s, to fighter jets, to 747, etc... & I respect these people a lot! I respect them so much to the point where I will do what they ask me to do, no questions asked!

& Cat, for what it's worth, I have done 60 degree bank turns at about 900ft AGL with an instructor......I don't know about the average instrcutor, but the one's I have worked with are freakin good!

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:29 pm

To demonstrate or practice VMC you must be at full power on one engine and zero thrust on the other engine...and reduce speed to the point that you can not control yaw without reducing power on the operating engine, in that configuration you are subject to complete loss of control and possibly an unrecoverable spin.... Are your multi engine airplanes certified for spins?

Firstly, we can all say that VMC is not required by TC in the training; BUT some instructor do demo it to their students right? Futhermore, should that Instructor demo it, they should take precaution in doing it as well as properly briefing the student. This is were the thread should have ended.

Now to the debate ... Some will argue why bother if not required, while other will say, let's do it so that you can get a sense by doing it. Other say, do it in a controlled environment. To each his own, but if you demo it in the air and things go awry, sorry kid it's your behind. Moving on ....

Cat, those instructors that are practicing/demo-ing VMC aren't silly (hopefully) enough to go the limit of uncontrollabilty ... many will do full power on one side, and might set zero thrust, but when they slow it down, as soon as yaw (ruuder input) goes (and the student notices), they're recovering.

I got a demo when doing my training, we never got near the published speed. The instant that rudder was applied to counteract the yaw, we were recovering. The idea of "turtling over" on our back leading to a spin was enough to convince me of never getting myself to that point.

As a side debate ....we all know that simulated forced landings are par for the course during training. How many simply reduce the power to idle? Do others cut the fuel via the selector, or even by going to ICO?

I've heard of instructors going ICO with no other traffic around (in case of overshooting), good weather (CAVOK), nil-to-light winds with plenty of altitude, to show a windmilling/stopped prop, whilst gliding to the field.

Is this dangerous ? Any takers ???

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:33 pm

THEICEMAN:

We are getting nowhere with this.

I'm sorry I ever got involved in this discussion.

But it is over and I will try not to annoy you in the future.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:52 pm

We are getting nowhere with this.

agreed

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:55 pm

In New Zealand the exercise is a little bit more difficult, because they don' t set max power on the "good engine" but less: then they lose control and stall at the same time.

In Canada and US we set the good engine at max power, the recover is very easy, you lose control well above the stall.

When you loose control you don' t immediately enter into a spin. I f you want to spin and die, you will have to maintain full power for a while, continue to lose control, your angle of bank will be 90 degres and you still do nothing you will enter a spiral dive (or spin) with one engine at full power.

When you practice:

YOU RECOVER at the first of the following: stall warning, buffet, loss of control. YOU DON' T SPIN. The same for a stall in a multi : you recover, otherwise: spin.

When you practice this is normal to loose control above VMCA, since VMCA is the speed at wich you lose control with max weight, worst CG, critical engine....

During VMC demonstration, loosing control and recovering doesn' t mean (and NEVER mean) spin.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:58 pm

Hi Grey Wolfe...

I enjoy helping you because you are open minded and willing to learn....

So.....

Cat, those instructors that are practicing/demo-ing VMC aren't silly (hopefully) enough to go the limit of uncontrollabilty ... many will do full power on one side, and might set zero thrust, but when they slow it down, as soon as yaw (ruuder input) goes (and the student notices), they're recovering

There have been far to many losses of life in twin engine airplanes during training exercises....the friend of mine was only an example and believe me he was an excellent pilot...but on that ride the airplane stalled, and spun in from procedure turn at YYZ as I recall one prop was feathered....it was in the late fifties or early sixties so I can't recall the exact details....it was around that same time frame Air Canada lost a DC 8 doing training and I believe it was practicing engine outs.

Anyhow the negatives far outweigh the positives training wise when you demonstrate flight that close to the limits of the controllability envelope just so the student can see something that is well understood as the force of gravity.

Do others cut the fuel via the selector, or even by going to ICO?

That can prove to be a bit of a problem sometimes.....

Let me tell you about my first Captain check ride on the DC3.

It was in 1968 and the chief pilot was doing two of us.

The other pilot mounted the left seat first for his ride and I was in the jump seat.

Just as the airplane lifted off the runway the chief pilot whipped the right mixture control to ICO...

...for a brief heartbeat everyone froze because the fuc.in Mixture lever had broken right off...thankfully the airplane was empty and the chief pilot was good..real good and he managed to keep the thing flying until he got it cleaned up and we did a short circuit and landed.

That was the last time we ever used the mixture to fail an engine.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:03 pm

Anyhow to flight instructor and THEICEMAN.

I'm out of this because I don't think I need to be told how to fly airplanes... .

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:03 pm

flight instructor wrote:In Canada and US we set the good engine at max power, the recover is very easy, you lose control well above the stall.

When you loose control you don' t immediately enter into a spin. I f you want to spin and die, you will have to maintain full power for a while, continue to lose control, your angle of bank will be 90 degres and you still do nothing you will enter a spiral dive (or spin) with one engine at full power.

When you practice:

YOU RECOVER at the first of the following: stall warning, buffet, loss of control. YOU DON' T SPIN. The same for a stall in a multi : you recover, otherwise: spin.

When you practice this is normal to loose control above VMCA, since VMCA is the speed at wich you lose control with max weight, worst CG, critical engine....

During VMC demonstration, loosing control and recovering doesn' t mean (and NEVER mean) spin.

Exactly how we did it....

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:03 pm

There have been far to many losses of life in twin engine airplanes during training exercises....the friend of mine was only an example and believe me he was an excellent pilot...

When was the last crash folowing a VMC demonstration?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:07 pm

Anyhow to flight instructor and THEICEMAN.

I'm out of this because I don't think I need to be told how to fly airplanes... .

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:14 pm

Cat, those instructors that are practicing/demo-ing VMC aren't silly (hopefully) enough to go the limit of uncontrollabilty ... many will do full power on one side, and might set zero thrust, but when they slow it down, as soon as yaw (ruuder input) goes (and the student notices), they're recovering.

I got a demo when doing my training, we never got near the published speed. The instant that rudder was applied to counteract the yaw, we were recovering. The idea of "turtling over" on our back leading to a spin was enough to convince me of never getting myself to that point.

Well, Grey_Wolfe did agree with us?

I give up....Cat, I am always willing to learn! But if you feel the need to dispute this even more, then your goin up with the majority of flight schools in the country.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:15 pm

I'm out of this because I don't think I need to be told how to fly airplanes...

I never told you how to fly an airplane.

I just say that VMC demo is not a dangerous exercise if you are current and recover when you have to recover.

That' s an exercice I have practiced a lot, on a lot of different aiplanes (including turboprop airplane).

I don' t like to be told that I am dangerous when nothing justify it. I am just doing my job.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:21 pm

Performing a VMC demonstration is akin to doing a real "V1 cut" for training.

Both of them, when examined on a risk vs. benefit level make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's the same reason that exercises such as advanced jet upset are left to the sim. The risk is just too high to go out and do it in the real airplane.

To be clear, what you're talking about here is an exercise that runs the real risk of putting the aircraft into a condition in which it is not certified to recover from. Twins are typically not certified to recover from spins - which is exactly what can happen if you let a VMC demonstration get away on you. If you need reassurance on this, look at the vast majority of accidents in light twins - you'll see a startling number of them resulted from the pilot losing control after an engine failed.

Cat, I'm with you - performing VMC demonstrations in the airplane is, IMHO, competely unecessary and too high a risk level to justify. If a school wants to do it, knock your socks off - but I certainly didn't do them when I taught multi-IFR and wouldn't want to be in the airplane when one was being done.

My 2c.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:28 pm

Thanks for the support Pugster.

I find that it very frustrating trying to defend teaching methods that are designed with safety in mind.

Somehow to many pilots can not understand that one does not have to prove they can fly in the danger area just to show a student that they can.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:34 pm

Performing a VMC demonstration is akin to doing a real "V1 cut" for training.

You must be joking!!!

Twins are typically not certified to recover from spins - which is exactly what can happen if you let a VMC demonstration get away on you.

This is the deal in aviation: let nothing get away on you.
What can hapen if you let a stall get away on you?
What can happen if you let an emergency descent get away on you?
What can happen if you let an engine failure get away on you?
What can happen if you let the flight get away on you?

you'll see a startling number of them resulted from the pilot losing control after an engine failed.

Yes but not loosing control after VMC demo. Vmc demo is exactly here to prevent what you just describe.

performing VMC demonstrations in the airplane is, IMHO, competely unecessary and too high a risk level to justify

Again when was the last accident due to VMC demo exercise?

but I certainly didn't do them when I taught multi-IFR and wouldn't want to be in the airplane when one was being done

You didn' t practice VMC demo, so do you feel safer now, in case of engine failure?

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:49 pm

I find that it very frustrating trying to defend teaching methods that are designed with safety in mind.

So let' s stop practising the engine failure, the full feather shut down, the spins, the stalls, the forced landings, the spiral dive, the unusual attitude, and of course VMC demo.

Training in the world is TO IMPROVE SAFETY.

We have practised vmc demo all around the world and in U.S for many years, and that' s not a safety issue concerning this exercise, please speak with facts.

In US this exercice is MANDATORY. No safety issue there during the training. I will start thinking that you speak about something you don' t know, just because you have never practiced this exercice.

However practising this exercise can just help you to be a safer and well trained pilot.

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:04 pm

THEICEMAN wrote:
Cat, those instructors that are practicing/demo-ing VMC aren't silly (hopefully) enough to go the limit of uncontrollabilty ... many will do full power on one side, and might set zero thrust, but when they slow it down, as soon as yaw (rudder input) goes (and the student notices), they're recovering.

I got a demo when doing my training, we never got near the published speed. The instant that rudder was applied to counteract the yaw, we were recovering. The idea of "turtling over" on our back leading to a spin was enough to convince me of never getting myself to that point.
Well, Grey_Wolf did agree with us?

I give up....Cat, I am always willing to learn! But if you feel the need to dispute this even more, then your goin up with the majority of flight schools in the country.

The first thing I said was that there different views on this .....

IF, IF, and IF your going to practice this, for whatever reason, please do it under a CONTROLLED environment. What Cat's opinion amounts to, IMHO, is how far are you as an instructor williing to toe the line before you cross over from being safe to being a statistic.

For some that line is on the ground, other in the air well above Vmc, others may feel competent and skillful to toe the line and even maybe enough to cross it. So all in all, where you draw that line is up to you. Personnaly ... why risk it. If you can do it another way safely without having to "fill your back of experience before your bag of luck runs out" then do it in a simulator, granted you won't get the same "feeling". The alternative is not feeling anything after your 6 feet under ....

Anywho .....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:06 pm

I will start thinking that you speak about something you don' t know, just because you have never practiced this exercice.

Just one more time flight instructor....

I don't know who you are but you sure don't have a fuc.in clue when it comes to understanding what my position on this is.....

.....who in hell do you think you are telling me I have never practiced that exercise ....

for christ sakes I earn my living flying airplanes to their maximum performance capabilities...I just don't believe in teaching it in ab- initio flight training.

What I am saying is I do not teach it .....in ab -initio training

It is easy for you to check my credentials and background...just google my name..

..what is yours so I can google your expertise?

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:23 pm

Here is the MANDATORY exercise in U.S:
http://www.faa.gov/education_research/t ... 81-12B.pdf

B. TASK: VMC DEMONSTRATION (AMEL and AMES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
NOTE #1 An applicant seeking an airplane—multiengine land (AMEL)
rating, “Limited to Center Thrust,” is not required to be evaluated on this
TASK.
NOTE #2 Airplanes with normally aspirated engines will lose power as
altitude increases because of the reduced density of the air entering the
induction system of the engine. This loss of power will result in a VMC
lower than the stall speed at higher altitudes. Therefore, recovery should
be made at the first indication of loss of directional control, stall warning,
or buffet.
Do not perform this maneuver by increasing the pitch attitude to a high
angle with both engines operating and then reducing power on the
critical engine. This technique is hazardous and may result in loss of
airplane control.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to VMC by explaining
the causes of loss of directional control at airspeeds less than
VMC, the factors affecting VMC, and safe recovery procedures.
2. Configures the airplane at VSSE/VYSE, as appropriate—
a. Landing gear retracted.
b. Flaps set for takeoff.
c. Cowl flaps set for takeoff.
d. Trim set for takeoff.
e. Propellers set for high RPM.
f. Power on critical engine reduced to idle.
g. Power on operating engine set to takeoff or maximum
available power.
3. Establishes a single-engine climb attitude with the airspeed at
approximately 10 knots above VSSE or VYSE, as appropriate.
4. Establishes a bank toward the operating engine, as required for
best performance and controllability.
5. Increases the pitch attitude slowly to reduce the airspeed at
approximately 1 knot per second while applying rudder pressure
to maintain directional control until full rudder is applied.
6. Recognizes indications of loss of directional control, stall warning
or buffet.
FAA-S-8081-12B 2-36
7. Recovers promptly by simultaneously reducing power sufficiently
on the operating engine while decreasing the angle of attack as
necessary to regain airspeed and directional control. Recovery
SHOULD NOT be attempted by increasing the power on the
simulated failed engine.
8. Recovers within 20° of the entry heading.
9. Advances power smoothly on operating engine and accelerates
to VXSE/VYSE, as appropriate, ± 5 knots, during the recovery.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:34 pm

What a tempest in a teapot ....

Exactly what is the purpose of a Vmc demo? Do multi-engine students
doubt so strongly that Vmc exists, that they need a convincing demo?
Is Vmc really that hard to comprehend?!

Similarly, I'm sure that prison gang rapes occur, and without
experiencing it, I am convinced that it is not a good thing to have
happen to you. The doubters here are welcome to seek out such
an experience to personally verify that, indeed, it is it not something
you want to do

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:35 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
To demonstrate or practice VMC you must be at full power on one engine and zero thrust on the other engine...and reduce speed to the point that you can not control yaw without reducing power on the operating engine...

I have a couple of points I'd like to make. First it is very rare (if not unheard of) for me to have an opportunity to correct an inadvertent typo by Mr. Driver. Let's all remind ourselves of the conditions under which Vmc is determined:

... one engine becomming inoperative and windmilling - not zero thrust as was previously stated.

Second, Vmc is a function of control - NOT performance.
Third, Vsse is a recommendation from the manufacturer - not a limit.

And finally, I do demonstrate the onset of Vmc with my students. No, I am not a crazy test pilot nor do I engage in any recreational drugs. Since Vmc is a function of control, I can SIMULATE Vmc by removing the amount of control the student has.

In level cruise flight, I simulate the engine failure allowing the student to conduct his checks to a point: Control - Power - Drag - Identify, Verify STOP.

At this point I position myself on the rudder pedals so as to limit the amount of travel. In the meantime, I harp on heading and altitude control. Eventually, one of two things will happen: a/c will approach the stall, or student will have full aileron, partial rudder (as much as I will allow) and yet the a/c will continue turning in the opposite direction. Voila! SIMULATED Vmc Demonstration. The beauty is that the airspeed rarely drops below 70 kts - 14 above the aircraft's Vmc.

This is a DEMONSTRATION. The student sees it once during their training, and that's it. It is not practiced.

Of course all of this is thoroughly briefed on the ground with the student ahead of time and practiced in the simulator.

I am a flight instructor. The story you just read is real.

- Isis