I think the benchmark for regionals right now in North America is Horizon Airlines of Seattle. Alaska Airlines regional subsidary has full control of there aircraft selection and isnt crippled by a protectionist union.
They have CRJ 700 and 900 series jets and also the largest fleet of Q400's in North America. I recently flew them from Bellingham down to Palm Springs on the RJ 700, was very impressed.
I wish we could make a push here at JAZZ to replace the rj100's and even alot of the 200's with rj 700's. ACPA couldn't even say anything about the 70 seat jet. Im sure they would; but what legal leg would they have to stand on.
As for the dash 100's, its long past there expiration date, and everyone knows it, including the public. I think if we want to really be competitive and boost are moral, we also need serious fleet renewal. Maybe with some wage increases and new airplanes we could actually keep people here, because it is a good job and could be that much better.
Why not CRJ 700'S
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I was pleasantly surprised, when I flew for the first time on an RJ 700 a few weeks ago from YWG-YOW, I found the leg room and the personal inflight video excellent and the best part was having a window I could look straight out of and not have to crouch to see out of (ala 100/200).
I know of people who commute a fair bit and cringe when they find out they are stuck on the smaller RJ's, even for an hour long flight...
Note to Jazz....Get more RJ700's!!!!
I know of people who commute a fair bit and cringe when they find out they are stuck on the smaller RJ's, even for an hour long flight...
Note to Jazz....Get more RJ700's!!!!
Gravity always wins
700s
705's would be ideal....but really they are an airplane that was made too appease ACPA, for the scope clause...Bombardier probably wont make them nor sell 705's to any other company in the world. A 900 series aircraft that basically has been recertified for a reduced configuration probably devalues the airplane alot. You cant change the aircraft into a 900 once it has been recertified to a 705.....
It would make sense to get the 700 series which has 66 seats or somthing close to that. It would fly under the radar of the scope clause and improve and modernize our aging fleet. The smaller RJ's are so unpopular for the travelling public. I just heard Skywest has just announced a deal worth 750 million to aquire a large number of Crj 700 and 900 aircraft. The 50 seat jet is no longer a reasonable option, high frequency is no longer acceptable to the environmentalists and I bet when they start really regulating here in Canada, they will eliminate the high frquency operations...
Places like Prince George dont need to be serviced like 4 or 5 times a day by a small jet. A larger configured airplane could cut that down to maybe twice daily and cut fuel costs and emissions in half overnite. In Europe where they have clamped down on emissions, the 50 seat Rj is basically extinct. Im sure this will happen in time here in Canada, your already seeing it stateside.
It would make sense to get the 700 series which has 66 seats or somthing close to that. It would fly under the radar of the scope clause and improve and modernize our aging fleet. The smaller RJ's are so unpopular for the travelling public. I just heard Skywest has just announced a deal worth 750 million to aquire a large number of Crj 700 and 900 aircraft. The 50 seat jet is no longer a reasonable option, high frequency is no longer acceptable to the environmentalists and I bet when they start really regulating here in Canada, they will eliminate the high frquency operations...
Places like Prince George dont need to be serviced like 4 or 5 times a day by a small jet. A larger configured airplane could cut that down to maybe twice daily and cut fuel costs and emissions in half overnite. In Europe where they have clamped down on emissions, the 50 seat Rj is basically extinct. Im sure this will happen in time here in Canada, your already seeing it stateside.
Re: 700s
Actually thats one of the biggest selling points of the Jazz service to PG, the frequency. Its far more convienient for people doing business to have more choice of times to fly. And most of those flights are quite full.998877 wrote:Places like Prince George dont need to be serviced like 4 or 5 times a day by a small jet. A larger configured airplane could cut that down to maybe twice daily and cut fuel costs and emissions in half overnite. In Europe where they have clamped down on emissions, the 50 seat Rj is basically extinct. Im sure this will happen in time here in Canada, your already seeing it stateside.
hmm
I dont think a small market like PG, population of like 50 000 needs 5 flights a day. Do you really think its efficient to have 5 flights a day burning X amount of fuel and polluting the air with tonnes of toxic emissions?
When oil goes up to 2 dollars or more, you can bet the farm that we wont be going up there 5 times a day. It is a money losing enterprise. Why do you think Westjet offers 2 flights a day, one from YVR one from YYC. There flights are 90% full. High Frequency is the way of the past, it wont last; with the cost of oil escalting and the huge push for environmental regulation, more efficient aircraft are needed. I.E. Jets that carry the right right amout of passengers to make it economically feasible too offset the costs of fuel.
When oil goes up to 2 dollars or more, you can bet the farm that we wont be going up there 5 times a day. It is a money losing enterprise. Why do you think Westjet offers 2 flights a day, one from YVR one from YYC. There flights are 90% full. High Frequency is the way of the past, it wont last; with the cost of oil escalting and the huge push for environmental regulation, more efficient aircraft are needed. I.E. Jets that carry the right right amout of passengers to make it economically feasible too offset the costs of fuel.
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maxofthenorth
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Re: hmm
With the loads averaging around 75-95% on those 5 flights, it would appear that the people of PG would disagree with you on that statement. (P.S. there are actually close to 80,000 people in Prince George)998877 wrote:I dont think a small market like PG, population of like 50 000 needs 5 flights a day.
Using that rational it would be best if we stopped flying all together. I would guess that the mill in PG pumps far more crap into the air in one day than ALL the flights into PG put together!do you really think its efficient to have 5 flights a day burning X amount of fuel and polluting the air with tonnes of toxic emissions?
If there are enough pax to justify the extra flights, airlines will continue to offer them. Plain and simple. Why would you take away a flight that is consistently making money? As a paying pax wouldn't you rather have more choice in when you get to fly? When the price of oil goes up, so will the cost of the ticket.High Frequency is the way of the past, it wont last; with the cost of oil escalting and the huge push for environmental regulation, more efficient aircraft are needed. I.E. Jets that carry the right right amout of passengers to make it economically feasible too offset the costs of fuel.
hi
its a small market period. The only reason we fly there 5 times a day is because we dont have the aircraft to do in two trips. Its not because they care about servicing the place every 3 hrs. Give your head a shake.
Re: hi
Before you start making suggestions, you might want to have a look at the way things work in the Air Canada family. When a run outgrows what Jazz can supply, Air Canada takes it over. Vancouver - San Diego used to be an RJ705 and is now a Emb. YYZ to Houston used to be a RJ200 and is now an Emb. Conversly when a market gets too small it comes to Jazz. YYZ-YQT used to be a DC-9/A320 four or five times a day. Its now an RJ 4-5 times a day. Air Canada has the airplanes to service PG or YQT twice a day if it wanted to. Obviously they chose to keep the frequency instead.998877 wrote:its a small market period. The only reason we fly there 5 times a day is because we dont have the aircraft to do in two trips. Its not because they care about servicing the place every 3 hrs. Give your head a shake.
Re: hmm
998877 (or should I call you Jmad?) its obvious by your last couple of posts as well as your posts in other threads, (all conveniently deleted I might add) that you have no intention of having a civil discussion about anything. You have your thoughts and I have mine.998877 wrote:ya wait until they get another 50 jungle jets.....your an expert!
hey
agree to disagree....im not an expert, didnt profess to make myself out to be one. However, neither are you. The way you exercise your opinion suggests you might think you are one. I stated my opinion, you dont have to agree with it, nor do I care if you do.
To my way of thinking and the current trends in Western Europe and in the U.S., there is a shift from higher frequency to larger aircraft. The embraer 175/190 was made because of this.
The 50 seat jet is dead. No company wants them, hence thay have discontinued making them. I think to stay ahead of the curve, we should start planning for there retirement sooner then later. We should start thinking of crj 700 type aircraft or larger.
Embraer has captured the market recently, because they anticipated the shift in global attitudes and recent surge in fuel costs and environmental concerns. Most RJ 100/200's in the states have been pawned off or retired to the desert. Somthing to think about.
To my way of thinking and the current trends in Western Europe and in the U.S., there is a shift from higher frequency to larger aircraft. The embraer 175/190 was made because of this.
The 50 seat jet is dead. No company wants them, hence thay have discontinued making them. I think to stay ahead of the curve, we should start planning for there retirement sooner then later. We should start thinking of crj 700 type aircraft or larger.
Embraer has captured the market recently, because they anticipated the shift in global attitudes and recent surge in fuel costs and environmental concerns. Most RJ 100/200's in the states have been pawned off or retired to the desert. Somthing to think about.
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Jaques Strappe
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Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
998877
I have to agree with Bcflyer.
The regionals have grown dramatically as a result of this. You no longer go to YSB, YYB, or YQY on a DC9 for instance. The company could not do it economically and hense, the regionals were born. You should also be wary of what you wish for. The only reason I say that is because what are you going to do if GGN starts demanding Dash 8 and RJ200 equipment and convinces management they can do it cheaper than you, thus creating layoffs at Jazz? Scope them? but wait, according to your logic, you have no regard for scope. Unless you want to fly an Airbus for B1900 pay, I wouldn't try venturing down that road. From what I have been seeing with the unions starting to work together after the corporate raiding of our salaries and working conditions, I would say they see it this way too. So don't crap on ACPA for wanting the same as you, protection of their flying.
I believe you are correct about the worldwide need for 50 seat jets being on the decline, however, I think comparing Canada's regional fleets with the rest of the world is difficult because we are geographically the second largest country but with the same population as California. Dash 8 and 50 seat jets probably do make sense in this country, at least for now, where other countries have different demands as a result of geography and population density.
I have to agree with Bcflyer.
This example is right on the money. YYZ-LAX used to be a 747 Classic, then an L1011, then a 767 and now mostly A320 equipment. YYZ-IAH was done with an A320, then an RJ, now an Embraer. AC utilizes the fleet flexibility as the market dictates.Before you start making suggestions, you might want to have a look at the way things work in the Air Canada family. When a run outgrows what Jazz can supply, Air Canada takes it over. Vancouver - San Diego used to be an RJ705 and is now a Emb. YYZ to Houston used to be a RJ200 and is now an Emb. Conversly when a market gets too small it comes to Jazz. YYZ-YQT used to be a DC-9/A320 four or five times a day. Its now an RJ 4-5 times a day. Air Canada has the airplanes to service PG or YQT twice a day if it wanted to. Obviously they chose to keep the frequency instead.
The regionals have grown dramatically as a result of this. You no longer go to YSB, YYB, or YQY on a DC9 for instance. The company could not do it economically and hense, the regionals were born. You should also be wary of what you wish for. The only reason I say that is because what are you going to do if GGN starts demanding Dash 8 and RJ200 equipment and convinces management they can do it cheaper than you, thus creating layoffs at Jazz? Scope them? but wait, according to your logic, you have no regard for scope. Unless you want to fly an Airbus for B1900 pay, I wouldn't try venturing down that road. From what I have been seeing with the unions starting to work together after the corporate raiding of our salaries and working conditions, I would say they see it this way too. So don't crap on ACPA for wanting the same as you, protection of their flying.
I believe you are correct about the worldwide need for 50 seat jets being on the decline, however, I think comparing Canada's regional fleets with the rest of the world is difficult because we are geographically the second largest country but with the same population as California. Dash 8 and 50 seat jets probably do make sense in this country, at least for now, where other countries have different demands as a result of geography and population density.
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Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
998877,
Do you even work for Jazz? Have you caught on to AC's business strategy? Have you noticed that everything here is point-to-point, high frequency with smaller aircraft? Notice higher freq. EMB flying as opposed to the A320? Do you fly the RJ? Have you noticed that the fuel burns in the 705 are almost exactly 50% more than the 100/200, hence the same fuel burned per passenger?
If AC were to follow your logic, we would buy a few A380s and fly YYZ-YUL twice a day.
Also, mgmt would love to get 700's (or more bigger planes), but is limited in capacity by both the CPA and the scope clause. ACPA's scope clause does not only limit the size of aircraft Jazz can have, but also the amount of flying Jazz can do as a percentage of RPM's that AC does.
The upcoming board meeting will be the first time that the board is made up of more outside directors than directors appointed by ACE. The investment companies will want to see some growth from us other than flying from AC.
Do you even work for Jazz? Have you caught on to AC's business strategy? Have you noticed that everything here is point-to-point, high frequency with smaller aircraft? Notice higher freq. EMB flying as opposed to the A320? Do you fly the RJ? Have you noticed that the fuel burns in the 705 are almost exactly 50% more than the 100/200, hence the same fuel burned per passenger?
If AC were to follow your logic, we would buy a few A380s and fly YYZ-YUL twice a day.
Also, mgmt would love to get 700's (or more bigger planes), but is limited in capacity by both the CPA and the scope clause. ACPA's scope clause does not only limit the size of aircraft Jazz can have, but also the amount of flying Jazz can do as a percentage of RPM's that AC does.
The upcoming board meeting will be the first time that the board is made up of more outside directors than directors appointed by ACE. The investment companies will want to see some growth from us other than flying from AC.
Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
Anyone who thinks 'frequency' isn't important doesn't understand the biz.
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Jaques Strappe
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Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
Bede
You are correct, it will be interesting times for Jazz as now they are no longer owned by Air Canada and only affiliated via a CPA. I would think this will allow Jazz to pursue its' own markets outside of the CPA. It makes me wonder what will eventually happen with things like travel pass harmonization between our two companies and I am also concerned about a further "race to the bottom" if Air Canada decides to just award the CPA to the lowest bidder.
I would highly doubt however, that the Jazz management team will only have Air Canada as their one and only customer.
You are correct, it will be interesting times for Jazz as now they are no longer owned by Air Canada and only affiliated via a CPA. I would think this will allow Jazz to pursue its' own markets outside of the CPA. It makes me wonder what will eventually happen with things like travel pass harmonization between our two companies and I am also concerned about a further "race to the bottom" if Air Canada decides to just award the CPA to the lowest bidder.
I would highly doubt however, that the Jazz management team will only have Air Canada as their one and only customer.
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Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
JS,
We have been hearing for a while of a plan to do the CPA thing with other airlines, especially upstarts in the middle east and in asia. I could be supplying crews only, or a wet lease. I heard the major thing stopping this is that we are hiring at full capacity and we are unable to increase the total number of pilots due to attrition.
As for the race to the bottom, I doubt it will affect us too much; airlines are having a hard enough time retaining pilots at the current wage rates. I believe it will finally be the companies who are the best employers who will rise to the top since they will see the least exodus of pilots. Interesting times indeed.
We have been hearing for a while of a plan to do the CPA thing with other airlines, especially upstarts in the middle east and in asia. I could be supplying crews only, or a wet lease. I heard the major thing stopping this is that we are hiring at full capacity and we are unable to increase the total number of pilots due to attrition.
As for the race to the bottom, I doubt it will affect us too much; airlines are having a hard enough time retaining pilots at the current wage rates. I believe it will finally be the companies who are the best employers who will rise to the top since they will see the least exodus of pilots. Interesting times indeed.
Re: 700s
Howzabout the CRJ400/440998877 wrote:Bombardier probably wont make them nor sell 705's to any other company in the world. A 900 series aircraft that basically has been recertified for a reduced configuration probably devalues the airplane alot. You cant change the aircraft into a 900 once it has been recertified to a 705......
most have been reconfigured back to 50 seats
Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
Jazz will eventually get a replacement a/c for the crj100-200 and there will be a business case to do so. because they are replacement a/c and with the mainline growing, traffic forecast to grow with people travelling more, there will be a case for a larger rj on the routes currently served by the crj at jazz. do you think that they will just park them , have the jungle jet fly all the routes , and have no more routes to fly for jazz, effectively cutting shareholder value in half? the company will make a business case for shareholder value and larger bombardier product of some sort will be on jazz property whether its a 700/705/900/1000. The precedent is set in the usa with crj700 at the regionals in great numbers, this is somewhat the benchmark for jazz and air canada . Also, the wages will only go up with inflation at jazz in 2009, with significant improvements in working conditions, and within 5 yrs half of all jazz f/o will be college grads , because that is the benchmark set in the usa. jazz will always be a regional carrier and neg. for wages and fleet scope will be affected by what happens to regionals in the usa, oil price, canadian dollar to mention a few.
The small crj is old, has corrosion issues and major flap problems. they dont make it anymore for a reason. passenger dont like it. There is a case for the jungle jet to replace some of the crj flying as the route grows, on specific runs, but I would never think the entire fleet. My guess would be that jazz will have up to 30 705s and mabe 50 crj700 and the dh8 fleet in the future.
The small crj is old, has corrosion issues and major flap problems. they dont make it anymore for a reason. passenger dont like it. There is a case for the jungle jet to replace some of the crj flying as the route grows, on specific runs, but I would never think the entire fleet. My guess would be that jazz will have up to 30 705s and mabe 50 crj700 and the dh8 fleet in the future.
Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
AC has to pay Jazz for 133 aircraft with min utilisation levels (approx 340,000 block hours/yr) thru the end of 2015. Those 2.7MM block hours can be flown on obsolete and aged equipment or on the latest offerings in regional aircraft technology, passenger comfort, and fuel efficiency.piggy wrote: My guess would be that jazz will have up to 30 705s and mabe 50 crj700 and the dh8 fleet in the future.
It is AC's call - they are the ones selling the tickets and paying for the gas.
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thrust set
- Rank 3
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Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
Remember a fellow named Martin Teplitsky as per the small jet allocation. He might have a different idea.
Re: Why not CRJ 700'S
Exactly. Teplitsky must pass all significant changes at jazz and if there is a business case for it, he will approve it. Kinda like tail 716, the extra 705 that acpa tried to stop, which replaced the -100 that had the gear go up in yyz. this also went in front of Teplitsky and was quickly approved. Changing crj200 to crj 700 is a good enough business case and when compared to the usa, its absolutely is, there maybe a case for more larger 705 or 900/1000 if/when they try to push scope as far as they can. The fact is that Jazz is a regional jet carrier and here to stay, they will replace the crj with a bombardier product at some point. They dont build the -200 anymore.
