Vsse

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:52 pm

trey kule:

Forgive me if I didn't go into details. I figured the intelect on this forum was such that you'd be able to understand the point I was trying to make.

You don't think I am a good instructor? Fine. Silly thing is, I don't care. I know I am a good instructor, my employer knows that, and the students I instruct know that.

Insert: Transport Canada who issued my class 2 rating knows that aswell.

Learn to listen to the message rather than nickpicking just to be a bully.

- Isis

PS - Iceman, Cat Driver's phrase was appropriate: the saying is "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". This means you can give someone the opportunity to learn or to do something, but you can never force him to accept that opportunity.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:56 pm

Oh wow...i'm impressed! So much you can tell just from post? Rolling Eyes

Just answer the question, without rhetoric please!

It is simple.

I do not try and teach people like you who already know it all.

It is a moral thing for me, I would feel guilty having you pay my rates knowing you already know it all.

Now is that plain enough?

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:01 pm

Isis

I was trying to make a point. some of the instructors here seem to think taking an aircraft to the edge of the envelope is a safe thing, and qualify it by stating, "good instructor", "good flight school", whatever those actually mean.

I took exception to your quick, one second bite, because that is the kind of thing instructors say because they really dont understand what they are teaching, and it allows them to use perfect logic to come to the totally wrong conclusion.
Was not trying to be a bully. Glad you are a great instructor. Glad you know it. Hope your not one of the 86% of pilots who consider themselves above average, and that I will never have to read of an accident where someone was teaching a VMC demo.

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:08 pm

trey kule wrote:... Hope I never read about you in an accident report with regard to VMC demos.

This is my point exactly. You didn't read (or properly read) my post. Never did I say that I take my students in the twin down to redline. I clearly explained how I SIMULATED Vmc at a higher airspeed.

(Go ahead... I'll wait for you to flip back a couple of pages and have a read again - slowly)

In fact, no one has commented on this method. Several times, posters here made accusations that we, as careless, misinformed, crazy instructors (kinda makes ya wonder why we have a rating) 'bomb around at Vmc'.

So, why should I converse with you, or be concerned about your comments, if you won't listen to mine?

- Isis

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:29 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Oh wow...i'm impressed! So much you can tell just from post? Rolling Eyes

Just answer the question, without rhetoric please!
It is simple.

I do not try and teach people like you who already know it all.

It is a moral thing for me, I would feel guilty having you pay my rates knowing you already know it all.

Now is that plain enough?

You don't like to read? I have admitted 5 times already, that I have taken your tips under much consideration!

& now you can't even give any of us a straight answer!

Cat you win....im out....forget it.....
White flag!

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:04 pm

flight instructor wrote: Spins are part of the CPL, but we don' t practice them during a normal flight, don' t we?

The difference is... if your student messes up the spin recovery technique for whatever reason, what is the aircraft doing now? It is still spinning. A stable flight manuever for which the aircraft is just as certified for as it was when you entered that spin. Assuming alt is not an issue.

Now if you do a full VMC demo, and you or your student screws it up, you enter into a manuever the aircraft was not certified for, and you may not have the ability or luck to recover from.

ISIS you are my hero. I take it the new crew is doing well on said ratings?

BTD

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:17 pm

Thanks BTD, I know you always got my back.

Yeah, the new crew are champs indeed. Definitely a great bunch of well-rounded pilots coming through in 2008.

- Isis

"You need to de-pressurize your attitude!"

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:27 pm

Excellent.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Isis wrote:

So, why should I converse with you, or be concerned about your comments, if you won't listen to mine?

Good point.

With regard to your method, I did read it. I just did not comment on it.
When it comes to the whole issue of a VMC simulation, I really do think that it should be done in a flight simulator only. This is not a comment on your method at all, but rather a question of why, when it is not a requirement ( in Canada for those who wish to inject the US regs as being somehow relevant), and not a flight test item, and one one that is costing the student money, and one that, in my opinion anyway, in absence of a flight simulator, could be done in ground school, and lastly, one that is a matter of knowledge and not a flying skill per se.

As I understand it from decades of flying twins, if you lose an engine you simply want to keep the aircraft above the VMC speed, and if it appears that your speed is decaying then you have to take certain actions to avoid the consequences.

And again, I am not commenting on your simulation method at all at this point. I am simply questioning the whole need for it., not just by you, but by any instructors or flight schools who do it. Maybe someone should try and explain to my old brain exactly why it is felt by them that this has to be done. If your student cant get it through their head that they can not let the speed decay, no amount of demonstrations are going to reinforce that point. Better to spend that flying time (in my opinion) in letting the student hold a targeted airspeed with one engine at zero thrust.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:02 pm

As I understand it from decades of flying twins, if you lose an engine you simply want to keep the aircraft above the VMC speed, and if it appears that your speed is decaying then you have to take certain actions to avoid the consequences.

Exactly:

If your student cant get it through their head that they can not let the speed decay, no amount of demonstrations are going to reinforce that point. Better to spend that flying time (in my opinion) in letting the student hold a targeted airspeed with one engine at zero thrust.

If you want to make it a bit more difficult leave the dead engine windmilling....

...just make sure you have a safety cushion speed wise above VMC...

Playing around in the VMC envelope is exposing you and your student to unnecessary risk.

Civilian flight training is not a war game and there are no medals handed out to the brave. ( read risk takers. )

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:03 pm

While I do not believe it necessarily necessary to give a full VMC demo as I posted above, I think the reason some feel it should be practiced is recognizing how the recovery differs from a simple stall.

When approaching VMC you are also approaching a stall. Making the correct recovery choice is critical. Take the following example.

Climbing out at Vx after take-off, engine fails, speed is immediately lost bringing you close to VMC and a stall.

Stall recovery says lower the nose, ensure full power blah blah .... VMC recover says lower the nose, reduce power on operating engine. Which do you choose? I think seeing it in the aircraft may help someone make that decision. But simulating that scenerio is definately cruisin for a bruisin.

So I think those who teach it in flight, want to illustrate the need to make the correct decision between techniques.

However, I don't believe the rewards out weigh the risks. Leave it for the sim, further discussion, and sitting in the aircraft on the ground rehersing the checklists.

BTD

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:13 pm

Sure it's a flying skill. Recovering from any unusual flight condition requires a certain amount of skill, duh!

You are correct. Vmc is not a flight requirement for the rating, or a flight test item. However, I don't teach students to pass the multi conversion ride, I teach them to fly safe. The rest comes as a result. As for the student's money? Well, in my line of work, I don't have to worry about that.

We do teach it in the sim along with extensive ground work. Forgive me for being thorough with my students.

As for the need for the demonstration? I can't vouch for anyone else, but my rationale is this: I do not want them to experience the onset of loss of control for the first time on their own.

- Isis

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:37 pm

Stall recovery says lower the nose, ensure full power blah blah .... VMC recover says lower the nose, reduce power on operating engine.

Have you already practiced this exercise?

That' s why we practice VMC demo, to avoid individual to kill themself when, following an engine failure, they lose directional control and fail to identofy and recover properly.

Read again (or practice) the recover procedure please.
1-power back to idle immediately
2-lower the nose in order to increase the speed
If you do what you describe, there is good chance that you will crash the day you have an engine failure AND you lose directional control.

Where'd who go? · Post by **Where'd who go?** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:42 pm

Then why don't you educate us there, Champ?

WWG?

Nice edit, Champ

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:46 pm

Then why don't you educate us there, Champ?

I have more the feeling that the ones with no experience about this exercise try to educate the flight instructor on VMC demo

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:51 pm

However, I don't believe the rewards out weigh the risks. Leave it for the sim, further discussion, and sitting in the aircraft on the ground rehersing the checklists.

so now you teach us how to do with the flight instruction?

RISKS: where are the datas? the facts? Again if dangerous to practice this exercise, why there is more accident when practicing forced landings then VMC demo?

Where'd who go? · Post by **Where'd who go?** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:54 pm

[quote="flight instructor"][quote]Then why don't you educate us there, Champ?[/quote]

I have more the feeling that the ones with no experience about this exercise try to educate the flight instructor on VMC demo[/quote]

Dude, I have more time with my finger on the starter button...

WWG?

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:57 pm

Leave it for the sim, further discussion, and sitting in the aircraft on the ground rehersing the checklists.

It doesn' t work: you are the proof, after having done your training you still don' t know on ground in front of your computer with no stress how to recover. Could you imagine the night in IMC during the climb, you lose one engine. fine. but afterward you lose directional control because for any reason you let the speed decrease. You have never praticed this exercice (VFR day with experienced instructor at altitude...) and you apply the recover you just posted: YOU CRASH.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:04 pm

If you want to make it a bit more difficult leave the dead engine windmilling....

Wrong.

If you leave the dead engine windmilling, the exercise will be much easier. The recovery much easier.
The loss of control very easy to identify. VMC speed well above stall speed.

The most challenging exercise is practiced in New Zealand where they set cruise power on one engine and the othe simulate engine failure.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:07 pm

I wonder if English is flight instructors fourth language because I'm having trouble trying to decipher what he/she is saying.

Or maybe he/she gets so stressed thinking about VMC he/she just becomes incoherent.

Where'd who go? · Post by **Where'd who go?** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:09 pm

I'm glad you said it first old chum. I, too, am experiencing the same difficulties.

WWG?

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:16 pm

Maybe someone should try and explain to my old brain exactly why it is felt by them that this has to be done. If your student cant get it through their head that they can not let the speed decay, no amount of demonstrations are going to reinforce that point. Better to spend that flying time (in my opinion) in letting the student hold a targeted airspeed with one engine at zero thrust.

So why do we teach how to recover from a stall? We just have to say the student: you see this speed? never go below. And we can get rif off this exercice.

flight instructor · Post by **flight instructor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:20 pm

I wonder if English is flight instructors fourth language because I'm having trouble trying to decipher what he/she is saying

.

Every body can guess easily when reading me that english is not my first language.

Let' s focus on the subject. You are wrong when you say:

If you want to make it a bit more difficult leave the dead engine windmilling....

And here that' s not a language probem, since english is your first language.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:21 pm

Are you this excitable when you fly?

Where'd who go? · Post by **Where'd who go?** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:22 pm

I'd say Eastern Europe, probably Poland ?

WWG?